to insist dad pays for things at his house?

[Stressymadre]

ExH and I have been separated a good few years now. We have 70/30 split technically, although our eldest spends most of his time here, and exH doesn't have them much in holidays. ExH is a high earner, but is is self-employed so what he declares as income is not what he actually pays himself as he puts a lot of expenses through his company (yes, I know this is illegal but not much i can do). He pays maintenance based on his declared income and on the number of nights he's meant to have the kids. I haven't asked for more as tbh he's a nightmare to deal with and we get buy. I have a good job and am sensible with money. When we were divorcing he stopped paying himself anything until I paid a solicitor to get involved.
Anyway he has started refusing to buy the kids anything except food when they are at his and has told them they need to get me to buy them stuff to keep there as he pays me a "bloody fortune" in CM payments. To add insult to injury he splashes money around himself like it's growing on trees but won't buy his kids deodorant or clothes ffs!
Any advice on how to manage this? Shall I just provide the kids with stuff to make sure they are provided for there or make a fuss and have himself potentially stop paying altogether? Kids are teens btw so not cheap!

They’re old enough to learn about finances and keep track of their own stuff.Its not fair but abusive men aren’t.

Send a bag, talk to the kids about bringing all stuff home, they are old enough. Do not get him invoved at all. It will allow him to know that he is still in your head and controlling how you act. You cannot change him, you do need to change your reaction to him. Don't engage on the money front - he will do what he does regardless, if you argue he will do it just to put you down. Grey rock is the way forward. Just keep doing your best for your kids, they will realise what a dick he is eventually.

I think they're old enough that you have a simplified conversation about finances with them.

About how CMS is calculated, who is responsible for what: make it clear it's not to have a go at their Dad, but to explain why you cannot keep providing stuff that costs, only for it to disappear, and they will have to be responsible for their belongings.

In a similar situation previously and I just brought lots of cheap clothes from Asda eg plain joggers and t shirts and my boys just left those clothes at their dads house.
Any branded clothes they accidentally took as they were wearing them would never come back and my eldest found step mum selling them on vinted, which really upset him.
so they just started taking basic clothes/ things they didn’t like any more from home.

This year my youngest went to reading festival and went home via dad’s house.

Him and his 3 mates all came home wearing old Asda clothes that had been left at dads house as they put their clothes from the festival in the bin. They all found it quite funny. Nothing wrong with Asda clothes by the way and I happily wear them myself they are just really reasonably priced so for me it worked well.

So I kept it as cheap as possible and me and the youngest had a laugh about how stingy dad is. It was unfair and a waste of money but it was the easiest option. Also, he has really upset our eldest with his pathetic behaviour but there is nothing I can do unfortunately.

So I would advise you to just send stuff rather than fight it. But get cheap stuff and keep the nicer stuff for when they go out with their friends.

Your ex needs a reminder that he needs to provide for the children while they are in his care and that there is a reduction in CMS payments to allow for this.
I'd make sure your DC have what they need though. School will absolutely help out with storing bags on changeover days: they’re used to this sort of fuckery and it doesn’t go unnoticed.

Does he pay himself dividends? The CMS should take that into account after he files his tax returns

He does which is why he does currently pay some CMS. But he mostly spends directly from his business so he doesn't need to pay himself much. For example, before when he rented he paid that through the business!! Honestly it's shocking

I'm in a similar position, 15 year old, I have to provide most things. Even when she's with EXH, I am the one she calls if she needs money for something. And, like a mug, I usually give in because I don't want her to go without. Equally, it's always me she's with when she happens to 'need' new clothes etc. My hope is that one day she'll realise how selfish he actually is but it's hard to keep quietly dignified in the meantime. It's a long game....

I had similar. My ex thought it was entirely my responsibility to send the dc to him with a suitable wardrobe for each visit, which he would then keep - just to piss me off, I think, I can’t see what else he got out of it…

When the kids were too young to sort out their own stuff, I made sure I packed clothes for them that I was happy to never see again - anything that was about to be outgrown, or was scruffy. I did a lot of charity shops, & also let friends know that I was very grateful for castoffs. (This annoyed ex as we had various mutual friends whom he didn’t like knowing he was a dick).

Once they were old enough to notice & started wanting to take their ‘good’ stuff, I just held the line that if they left anything at Dad’s, they’d have to go without it until their next visit - if that meant wearing their less favourite trainers or not having make up for a party, oh dear.

They very quickly got very good at organised packing, which is now standing them in excellent stead as young adults.

Meanwhile, I assume xh’s house is now bursting at the seams with long forgotten second hand Asda tshirts from when they were 8 🤷🏻‍♀️.

I think it’s all you can do - they’re teens, they’re old enough to understand that Dad won’t buy them stuff, & you will, but you won’t buy it twice, so they need to pack a bag when they visit their father.

Mine have a fairly low opinion of their DF as adults, & bluntly, a good chunk of that is because from an early age they had his measure as a selfish arse who resented providing for them.

God it's awful to hear others have had the same. I just don't understand it. The selfishness is off the scale isn't it. Mine famously buys himself posh food (nice biscuits for example) but says the kids aren't allowed them. My DD got upset with him and he told her if she wanted nice stuff to get a job... she's 12 ffs!!

if he’s got a mortgage he must have provided them with evidence of his earnings in order to get it, so there must be something somewhere that shows he said he earns

so i wonder if that signed document could be obtained somehow by the cms…… maybe you need to tell them he has a mortgage now for a house that sold for £xyz on soanso date which happens to be when he moved there for £xx amount (easy to find on sold house prices on rightmove)….

I would message him directly. I don't think its fair that the kids act as a messenger between you and your ex. I would be open with them and show them messages you are sending though so they know who's doing what.

I don't think you should send any clothes/toiletries etc. to his house. It's his responsibility to give them what they need when they are there.

Maybe the kids need to stand up to him and say if they don't have clothes there, toiletries etc. then they won't be going. It's hard for kids to do that though as they won't want to rock the boat.

He sounds awful. My daughter would have an answer for me if i told her she isn't getting the same biscuits as everyone else. I think she would eat them all out of spite so no one would get any.

A poster on MN said they asked for a "variation of earnings" (I'm not sure that was the exact term) from HMRC or CMS. Not terribly sure of either. She said that her maintenance payments went up quite a lot as HMRC did a full calculation of earnings/tax and this was linked to CMS. It might be quite worthwhile making a phone call to both agencies.

If your DC are near enough to 11 or older they would be quite capable of looking after their own stuff. If not then keep cheap old toothbrushes/paste/deodorant for them to take and share. One set of pjs and clothes left behind and no more.

Tell him you'll be giving HMRC a nudge about his expense unless he stops being a utter twat . His choice since he likes control so much .

My DD got upset with him and he told her if she wanted nice stuff to get a job... she's 12 ffs!!

I would tell him that your 12yo has got a job as requested and is now too busy to visit him. Fuckwit.

My husband is hardly father of the year, but even he enjoys taking his kids out for a nice ice cream or cake or bringing them back a treat.

Just tell the children you can't provide anything for them at his house and that he has plenty of money himself to do that, but they are welcome to stay at home where they have what they need. Just another selfish prick of a bloke. I'm sure your children know this.

Of course you don’t pay for stuff on his time. he buys toiletries, clothes, and pays utilities when they are with him.

You don’t need to involve the kids but you do need to be factual with them.

And please don’t feel responsible for being the ultimate carer/ protecting their image of him!

Show them how your finances work - that is just responsible parenting and good teaching for them about money. My kids both knew and understood household income from about age 13/14, how much necessities cost, what was left over (nothing!) etc. they also knew we were secure and had enough for our needs but it does no one favours to hide adult realities from kids who will be adults themselves very soon.

Absolutely dont pay for stuff their dad should be paying for. If the kids complain about not having clothes/fun money/ whatever at his, then it’s fair to sympathise and scaffold but not ride to the rescue: “oh, it sounds like you are struggling with not having clean/ enough clothes. That sounds tricky. Have you spoken to dad about that? Did you manage to resolve it?” Leave it there. It’s not your job to solve him and I am guessing they will have food, some clothes and other basic necessities like shelter - it’s the nice to haves that will be missing.

There is way, way too much emphasis on women being the default parental backstop and “protecting the kids”. Yours, particularly the eldest, are old enough for the relatively unvarnished truth.

if eg, school complains kids are turning up without uniform, etc, it’s a firm “please contact Dave about parenting issues. He has them on Monday, Thursday and Friday. I am always available for serious neglect or safeguarding concerns of course” sort of thing.

HMRC might be interested, both in him & his accountant

£12570 on the dot I guess he pays himself 🙄

@Ophy83 you could ask him to but surely not insist.
Are the dcs old to ask him if they can share his or could he just put some there rather than toing and froing with stuff.
He might even see the sense.

CMS have a separate department that can calculate payments based on assets rather than pay. You call them and ask for a variation based on the company he owns and they can look at the company accounts. If you have evidence that his salary doesnt match his lifestyle that can help

Without knowing how much he pays you each month it's very difficult to judge whether his monthly contribution covers the shared costs of raising the children while leaving him enough to cover his own living costs. .

It does sound pretty petty that you are both arguing over some extra toiletries . You can get shampoo and shower and deodorant really cheaply in supermarkets. I wouldn't make a fuss about toiletries or even clothing costs in front of the children. Children don't need more clothes just because they live in 2 houses, it just involves organising the handover better.

While it's not fair if you are paying the lions share of raising the chikdren I don't think you should provoke him into deliberately lowering his income and ending up worse off . If money is tight for both of you, you could get them some cheap casual wear to leave at his place from Primark or even charity shops as a change of clothes when they are at his Depending on the days they stay at his their Dad can wash and dry their school uniform, and the changed out of clothes to ensure they have clean clothes at his.

It won't be long before the children are capable of sorting themselves out

I understand why some women take the moral high ground and don’t slag off their partners but I don’t get why they create this false illusion and make them out to be much better than they are, or at least don’t tell them the basic facts - like when the man is obviously manipulating the system and they are going without. Is it bc they want to preserve a false image of a loving, doting father? Why do these shit men get away with it?

My ex told my children he couldn't afford to eat because of the amount of CM he was paying me. I showed them the CMS calculation letter and my DD asked 'so he actually has that amount of money for himself every month and he's telling us that he can't afford to eat?'. I had to point out that that was his weekly income. Mind blown. When you're dealing with a narcissistic manipulative fuckwit, the children need facts.