The whole UPF concept is an artificial distinction and very unhelpful

[Interestingnamesuggestion]

I understand that it's healthier to eat foods that are more natural/made with natural ingredients. I have no issue with that.

My issue is that putting so much food that people eat regularly (especially people on lower incomes) into one category and labelling it all as if it were all equally bad just removes all nuance and can make healthy choices feel unachievable to people who have less money or less time to spend in the kitchen.

Literally, cheap sliced wholemeal bread is a UPF in the same category as cheap white sliced bread. Same category as a bag of Quavers or gummy bears.

Wouldn't it be better to have one or two more categories to reflect the benefits of eating food that is higher in fibre (e.g. wholegrains, not that weird stuff they add to "healthy" processed snacks) and lower in fat and sugar? Or food that has some additives but is made with a higher proportion of whole foods?

That's what makes it UPF, ingredients that are not needed or are modified/manufactured by some sort of chemical process, to enhance shelf life and appeal, to magnify flavour or to replace natural ingredients that have been deemed to be expensive or difficult to handle when the output of a chemical works comes in convenient drums and can be kept in a warehouse for years. Look up the "Chorleywood Process" used by the majority of industrial bakers and tell me why the product isn't ultra processed.

No thanks, I'm not that invested and I've got other things to do today. I don't think much of what you have said applies to this ingredients list anyway.

Other posters have told me that the bread isn't UPF and according to the Yale University info page just posted it isn't either. Vinegar is an ingredient commonly used at home (albeit not often in bread).

I personally think the "fermented wheat flour" could be considered a problem as it's a way of getting preservatives in with having to label them (I just googled it). But I'm still happy with the bread.

To be fair I think the ingredients list has changed since the last time I looked at it (probably over a year ago). The standard Tesco wholemeal bread contains emulsifiers. This one is Nevills - what would have been Tesco Value at one time.

You're absolutely right and there are a lot of people in this country who could benefit a lot from the automatic portion control in supermarket ready meals.

And though they're all lumped in with UPFs, many of them contain only ingredients you could cook with at home.

'fermented wheat flour'
sourdough you mean?

This is why I think it is better to encourage people to add things to their diet than try to make restrictions.

If you suggest to people: eat more fresh veg, eat more colourful veg, eat more fibre; by the time they've added those things, there's simply less room to fill up on maccy Ds and Krispy kremes.

It's easier to implement, it's simpler messaging, it doesn't create fear, and it avoids the problem of relatives like mine over-restricting their diets

YABU. UPFs are awful and need to be banned.

For example, if you tell people "drink more plain water each day, aim to drink an extra 3 glasses, here are the health benefits xyz" or similar, that is more psychologically effective than "don't drink fizzy drinks, here are the harms xyz".

You will naturally drink fewer fizzy drinks if you've drunk more water that day. You won't get overblown fear mongering, people scanning ingredients lists with fear. And people are less likely to misunderstand. And companies won't be able to profiteer from the messaging "THIS fizzy drink is free from chemical xyz". People will just drink more water, which is what we want.

What annoys me now, though, is that removing those additives has become another marketing ploy to whack up the cost. Proudly advertising your bacon as Nitrate free is great. Using that as a reason to hike up the price isn't. There is no reason why Nitrate free bacon should cost more.

This is part of the problem, to me. Marketing food with less crap in it as some high-end luxury product.

Nitrates extend shelf life.

Reducing shelf increases costs, as does requiring more shelf space for a second product and the marketing to tell you there is a nitrate free product available.

It's not sourdough, no. I looked it up this morning and the gist is that they add specific bacteria to flour, to naturally produce acids such as propionic acid (which is a preservative that they would otherwise have added separately and had to include in the ingredients list).

Have you read much of the discussion on what is or isn't included as a UPF?

I suppose the ultimate point is does the consumer want cheap, eye-catching food with a long shelf life that can all be sourced in one shop, or more expensive quality food which doesn't keep as well and will require the buyer to visit several outlets. At the local craft baker, I can see the owner and her daughter in the back, making the bread and cakes, the butchers, next door, knows which farm(s) their meat has come from and make their own sausages, burgers and pies (unfortunately no black pudding), both shops charge a higher price for premium products which aren't labeled "Finest", "Be Good To Yourself" or "Taste The Difference" to differentiate them from the other crap being sold. You pay your money and take your choice, I know what my choice is.

There are two categories anyway-processed )eg cheese- fine to eat) or ultra processed, which is really bad for you. As well as natural food, so that makes three.

@Interestingnamesuggestion
"Literally, cheap sliced wholemeal bread is a UPF in the same category as cheap white sliced bread. Same category as a bag of Quavers or gummy bears."

Well that's put the kibosh on my 'go to' comfort food - The Gummy Bear Sandwich... 🙁

Supermarkets, however, could absorb that extra cost more than they do. There's a level of appealing to a certain demographic which will pay the extra. It becomes a chicken and egg situation. They know they can charge more because people will pay it. It then creates a narrative that food without the additives is some sort of luxury. It will be in fancier packaging, adding to the cost. A percentage of the price increase on premium products in supermarkets is due to differences in packaging.

There's ways the cost could be brought down, but whilst there's people willing and able to pay more, there's no reason to do it.

Anyone remember when years ago, the tiny brown 'crispy looking' bits on Ryvita were declared carcinogenic? I kept eating them though.

The poor are exactly who were targeted by the food industry in the first place. The whole UPF thing is simply to make more money- chicken nuggets, Chorleywood bread, rubbish cereals, crisps by the tonne.

Its very hard to be totally UPF free but surely you can use common sense and see a bit of preservative in muesli that is otherwise OK would be OK.

A diet based on pulses, vegetables, homemade bread and plain dairy is cheap. The problem is that people don't want to eat it, it's boring and flavourless to them after being conditioned to eat frozen pizzas packed with additives.

Bread is easy peasy to make and costs me less than 40p.per loaf to make.

There is no reason why Nitrate free bacon should cost more.

Not adding nitrates will reduce the shelf life of the bacon. This will lead to more waste, and they’d need more frequent deliveries of smaller quantities which will be more expensive.

I’m all for cutting unnecessary crap out of foods, but we need to accept that producers won’t bear the cost of it, so we the consumer will have to stump up more for it.

The bread most people eat in this country IS rubbish. Chorleywood bread is an industrial product with a LOT of yeast.

If that’s what you can afford or it’s what you like well ok - but it is not very nice and not very good for you. If UPF discussions make people think twice about eating it - well, good.

I could shop like this as long as they were open 24 hours a day and delivered. Otherwise I would have to hire a 'shopper' because who has time to spend a day walking around shops? I have approximately 20 mins free a week in which I can just about order a weekly online shop.

The whole subject is bullshit. There is no such thing as an “unhealthy” food, except maybe contaminated or infected food, which is much more likely with artisanal food than with carefully manufactured and researched recipes and products. There are of course unhealthy diets, but anyone who eats even vaguely normally (and doesn’t have a relevant medical condition) needn’t worry about that.

The really interesting thing about diet and health is the psychology of why so many people - on MN at least - are so obsessed with this junk science. My view is that it’s a combination of wanting to think they have some medical insight (however bogus), given that much medical knowledge is nowadays very sophisticated and out of reach of most of us; and, for parents, wanting to appear more nurturing and caring.

Just eat a varied diet and stop worrying.

It's off topic, but can I ask if you make wholemeal? I used to make my own bread, but never had any success getting wholemeal to rise well enough to make a sandwich loaf. I wasn't using a bread maker, though.

it would be helpful to have food graded from a 1 to 10 scoring system. The issue is, it wouldn't be perfect, but it would at least give people some ideas to what they have in their basket. As if the weekly grocery basket of 10 items is scoring over 50 points then they should try to reduce the score overall.

So as an off the cuff example

options hot chocolate would score the full 10 points
a white sliced loaf 9 points
a wholemeal sliced loaf 9 points
a tin of peaches 3 points
a packet of tomato zero
a bunch of bananas zero
packet of mince meat 3 points
chicken raw drumsticks zero points
breakfast coco pops 10 points
sausages 5 points

so swap the mince meat for cubed beef
the bread for fresh bread unsliced

don't come at me for the actual foods and grading - its a rough example

if im doing the stretch and fold method by hand - I use half and half white and wholemeal, better rise and not so dense