Are you neurodivergent?

[fintangel]

Have you been diagnosed with, or do you suspect you might have ADHD or ASD or a combination or both?

YABU = yes
YANBU = no, I’m definitely neurotypical

Of course you deal with it, but isn’t it massively helpful to see the root of behaviour, and access, find and explore strategies to help. Why wouldn’t you do that?

The Hunger Vs Farmer theory is a hypothesis that hasn't been proven. There is every chance that ADHD didn't arise from evolutionary advantage but instead is just an extreme expression of human genetics and behavioural traits which would often be disadvantageous in a survival scenario. It is undoubtedly true that inattentive ADHD doesn't fit the 'hunter' model nor do traits such as impatience and poor executive functioning which are heavily linked to ADHD.

Everyone knows that almost everyone experiences traits of ADHD. ADHD isn't binary. The very same person that is deemed NT in a low demand environment can warrant an ADHD diagnosis in a high demand environment. This is because ADHD is diagnosed based on the presentation of symptoms and not static neurodevelopmental traits. Equally a person that was once diagnosed with ADHD technically can move into a low demand environment where they wouldn't meet the clinical threshold for an ADHD diagnosis. Currently they retain their diagnosis but it does make a mockery of the process if someone that was experiencing ADHD symptoms in exactly the same way as they currently were would be deemed NT.

I think there are probably far more people who are neurodivergent than realise it, especially those who have learnt to mask or have never had a reason to seek a diagnosis. It’s interesting how many adults are only starting to recognise things in themselves after their children are diagnosed.

I think many adults who don’t think this is a thing, don’t realise how much masking went on in eg the 80s, 90s etc within their friendship group. In the 90s I did whatever it took to appear normal. So, as a very small example, I’d go to a nightclub for example even though I absolutely hated it, just so my friends didn’t call me boring etc. I’d hide in the toilets periodically for a break. I’ve told my uni friends this now and they had no idea. I am really happy for today’s ND youth, that it is much more accepted to say ‘no thanks, it’s not enjoyable for me.’ I wasn’t alone in masking, there were probably thousands of us.

I suspect if I underwent the assessment, I’d be found to have ADHD. I’ve no intention of doing so because I manage it in my own way and I’m perfectly happy as I am. I have a successful career and personal life generally, and have never really felt held back. I’d also have no intention of becoming reliant on medication, so it would just be a label.

Yes you are correct to say that the Hunter Farmer thing is a hypothesis. I don’t think it could ever be proven. You are of course free to reject something that is only an idea. However, let’s suppose you are right - that does not to prove or even add any weight to your theory that ADHD is merely a
collection of personality traits.

There are fundamental conceptual flaws in your understanding of how ADHD diagnoses work. For adults, clinicians have to have evidence of the pattern of ADHD behaviours must be occurring before the age of 12 and in various settings. People do not become non-ADHD in less demanding situations - it is simply that is less noticeable to the outside observer.

And yes as I said before, everyone has ADHD traits, but again that is not an argument it is just an extreme personality type rather than a neurodevelopmental difference. Nobody says “everyone gets sad so that means depression doesn’t exist” or “everyone has has bad nights so that means that insomnia doesn’t exist.” To get a diagnosis of depression or insomnia disorder you need to have clinically significant issues and the same is true for ADHD.

But was that masking ND or you just not liking nightclubs but wanting to fit in? It’s perfectly normal to not like nightclubs and also perfectly normal for young people to go with the crowd.

I don’t mean that disrespectfully, I’m just trying to better understand where ND begins and ends when it comes to individual preferences.

I don't think I am. Husband and 3 adult kids never been tested and I don't think they are. when I see any thread on MN about this I think " yipes I'm not going to understand a thing about all this". It is all Greek to me. The only thing I've picked up is that having neuro divergent kids sounds like an extra layer of hassle .. But no doubt there are many nice aspects as well I guess..Gawd knows.

No. I’m not ND

No, that's not how it works. To get an ADHD diagnosis you have to describe how your ADHD traits are currently impacting you. It isn't enough to draw upon evidence from the past and state that in a high demand environment in the past you struggled if those struggles aren't as prevalent now. The evidence from the past is needed to validate that it's a neurodevelopmental disorder that has been present since you were a child. Of course, the obvious problem could be that a child with ADHD traits could have very little evidence if they grew up in a very low demand environment and conversely someone that grew up in a very high demand environment is much more likely to have evidence even if the underlying traits are similar. The same can be true for an adult presenting in the doctor's office who is living in a high or low demand environment. This will significantly influence the probability of receiving a diagnosis.

Everyone has ADHD traits. The threshold between being an NT individual with traits and someone with diagnosable ADHD is mainly the level of impairment. Science has proven this is hugely environment dependent. This should be a huge red flag for anyone who is interested in the accuracy of diagnoses. Add to this the subjective nature of where the clinically significant threshold sits. I mentioned upthread that the British Psychological Society argued strongly that the threshold for medicalisation is too low in DSM 5. Many experts agree. We could very well be diagnosing those that feel the ADHD equivalent of 'a bit sad a lot of the time' with ADHD.

I think we are saying the same thing about one thing: to get an ADHD diagnosis as an adult that you need to have had it as a child and now.

Where we are not saying the same thing: The fact that ADHD may be more manageable is certain environments is not a “red flag” for a diagnosis- any more than the fact that I can watch my TV fine without glasses means that there is nothing wrong with my distance vision. If I am driving, I do need to wear glasses. My short sightedness is not an environmental phenomenon.

The threshold for diagnosis being too low or high is hotly debated. Plenty of psychiatrists think it is too rigid, especially for adults.

The fact that that the cut off point for diagnosis involves subjective judgement does not make the diagnosis invalid. There are many diagnoses where the symptoms are on a continuum - even high blood pressure - at some point experts got together and decided what constituted high blood pressure. In a sense it is arbitrary, like ADHD, but obviously that is not really fair because both have been decided on scientific evidence, not at random.

Theres a movement to use the term 'compensations' rather than masking, as most people adapt/mask to some extent so it can sound a bit meaningless.

I would say the difference is the level and the success. Eg if I were to go to a nightclub, it isn't just that I wouldn't like it, I would struggle to function the next day (and not due to a hangover!) Anything too over stimulating and I can't be around people and struggle to speak for a while after. It's like the worst brain fog. My adult equivalent is if I have to go to a big conference, I have to have a 'buffer' the next day of quiet work without having to do small talk,I would really, really struggle without that.

Whether socially or at work, my compensations would involve lots of mental work - eg the nightclub, (if I were to do such thing!) would include researching the venue, layout, times, etiquette, making plans and contingency plans, rehearsing socially acceptable conversations, and struggling if anything didn't go to plan (eg the dress code was different to what I expected, or new people were invited I didn't know about) I would also have a plan about how to deal with being overwhelmed (like the hiding in the toilets, a rehearsed phrase for when I wanted to leave)
With all the above, I'd expect to be half as successful as my friends, eg to be seen as a wallflower, awkward, not making new friends.

Anything like that would take a significant amount of mental energy in preparation, during the event and recovering after, hence it being more than just putting a smile on and trying to fit in. Similar to how we all get tired if we have to walk up lots of stairs, but someone with MS or CFS is going to plan for a day where stairs are involved very differently to someone who just is a 'bit unfit'.

Eyesight tests are an objective test. You can either read the bottom line or you can't. They don't give you glasses based on the fact that you think you can't see the TV but actually can read the whole eye chart correctly. Even if you gave them evidence suggesting that you always thought you had poor eyesight. Also eye sight doesn't change when you're in a high or low demand environment. It isn't linked to trauma like ADHD. Eyesight is basically a terrible comparison.

The fact that it's on a continuum is relevant because society is treating ADHD and Autism as a binary which is a nonsense. You then have those that are obviously higher functioning claiming arguing that those with incredibly high needs can't even be assigned a different subtype than them as it somehow invalidates their experience. It is also relevant because the test is inherently more subjective than a blood pressure test. There is no scientific evidence that proves that the ADHD threshold in DSM 5 is better than the one in DSM VI. Many experts complete disagree with it broadening out. There is no definitive evidence that it should sit anywhere in particular. It's a policy judgement. If policy changes then someone with ADHD currently may miraculously find they no longer have either. It's ultimately simply a tool to apportion resource and care. Someone that just misses out on a diagnosis is functionally not materially less impaired than someone that only just meets the criteria.

i can’t imagine someone saying “there
is no natural biological boundary between a blood pressure of 139/89 and 140/90. Therefore hypertension is ultimately just a policy judgement. Therefore hypertension is merely a tool for allocating healthcare resources.” (and yes I know BP is measured objectively but that is not the point). The point is we have a continuum and for better or worse a group of experts has to decide where to lay down the marker for hypertension and ADHD.

And yes I agree that somebody just below the threshold for ADHD may well be missing out on treatment that they would benefit from. This is something that doctors worry about and what I was alluding to when I was saying before that some doctors think they are too
rigid.

And yes I agree that my eyesight analogy was not the best but the point was that the context or environment affects how visible and disabling a trait is, not whether it exists or not. For example - a hyperactive child running about in a classroom where the children are suppossd to be sitting quietly is a problem
but in a soft play centre much less so. The child is still hyperactive whether in school or soft play.

Yes. AuDHD diagnosed at 39.
2 x boys with ADHD

”Are you neurodivergent?”
I might as well be - everyone else and their dog appears to be….

I’ve been pondering this recently, no diagnosis but my dd and my nieces and nephews are all ND which makes me think maybe I am.

I always struggled a bit at school, was bullied and tended to have a very intense friendship with one or two other girls.

Definitely have a few sensory issues with clothes and food, probably an element of ARFID.

Have been hopeless at romantic relationships, longest relationship in my life was 10 months (I’m 47.) Am happy on my own, never really saw the appeal of having a husband.

But I have maintained long term friendships of over 35 years, hold down a good job and work with the general public. I relate well to people and get on well with most people.

I would say I have a few ND traits 🤷‍♀️

Im pretty sure I'm autistic but never pursued it as there is no point

I think you’re forgetting though that there’s one environmental constant for most children that is school, which is a high demand environment. That is why so many children struggle at school, either in the actual setting itself or by high masking and falling apart every day after school, and big issues with friendships and other social aspects, often presenting as mental health issues, self harm etc. That’s generally the common experiences that a lot of us diagnosed ND have and what is used for evidence during assessment. Generally, if there were no struggles such as this during childhood you won’t meet the criteria, as it’s a life long condition. If someone managed to breeze through school and childhood then they probably aren’t ND.

Lots of people (including my kids) have suggested that I am ND in various ways, but if I am, then I can say it's only ever worked to my advantage 🙂

I’ve often wondered why some people say asbergers instead of Asperger’s ? Is it just a spelling mistake ?

I think it’s like when some people say “chor-rit-zoh”instead of “chor-ree-tho”. And don’t get me started on “gyros”.

Diagnosed six weeks ago with ADHD and recommended strongly for autism assessment. 54 and somehow managed with working all my adult life, two degrees, married and a child but at great cost to my mental health. Permanently stressed. Physically crave exercise for my dopamine hit but mentally exhausted.

A lot of that is peer pressure. I found myself in a few situations that felt terribly awkward and uncomfortable as a teenager and young adult . I think a lot of teenagers mask their personalities as they haven’t fully grown into themselves yet and feel unsure.

I am ND yes, but I cannot understand the point of this thread. It’s like asking people if they have brown hair or blonde. It serves no purpose.