To believe that we need to create two hundred more Grammar Schools for the Shires of England.

[redange]

To believe England needs two hundred new Grammar schools across the country and in doing this take the number of English Grammar Schools to 363.

I appreciate this is a post that is going to lead to me being called names and for posters to be looking at spelling and grammar mistakes as a means of belittlement .

Nonetheless, there must be support among some posters for the lifting of the 1998 Labour Ban on the creation of Grammar Schools where there is a desire or clear need. The only Grammar School that has been built since 1965 being the Weal Of Kent Grammar Annexe in Sevenoaks . Surely if the country is going to be able to grow economically, we need to revisit the idea of selective education across Sport, Art and academic rigour. It is also not impossible that a fairer and more equitable system of selection could be introduced alongside the 11+ exam. Thus, in doing so access to selective education should not be a 'one and only' chance. I think this is where a lot of people have problems, because they see selective education through the prism of pass or fail. Pass or Fail does not mean the same today as it meant in 1965 because firstly the advent of a single exam system of GCSE's and A levels that all pupils take or can advance to.

Why are the children who would likely perform better elsewhere responsible for the success of the other students or the comp?

OohAhh legs. I think with Andy Burnham in Power and his intention to turn 'winners' into losers there are not going to be any new Grammar Schools anytime soon. On the contrary I think we need to be aware that a future Labour Government elected in a General Election will seek to deal the final blow to both Independent and Grammar School Educations. This will be a great harm to the United Kingdom , the Private Sector will just up and move to Dubai and the Far -East taken with it years of great educations and en-powering a wealth and brain drain exodus from the UK. Lucy Powell can then have her dream of everybody being educated in a bog standard 'Secondary Modern'. However, with the public believing them to be high performing Comprehensives with exceptional standards of education !

I'm forever glad the cleverer kids get a specialised education tailored to their needs

Except they don't perform better elsewhere.

And the existence of grammar schools is detrimental to the other schools in the area.

So if you were creating an education system, grammar schools + secondary moderns isn't an overall improvement on comps.

I think I have proved my point from my first posting saying I expected to be called names or belittled . The only surprise being it took eight hours and not 10 minutes !

I do not know why posters get so upset about ideas that have no chance of ever happening. This, especially under a Government that actively sees the simplest way of creating equality is to make everybody losers.

For the record I do not need to write an academic essay or anything even up to GCSE standard to express a view.

I don’t agree, where there is a proper grammar system the gcse results are significantly higher than England, showing that grammar schools do achieve better results, by a long way.
You only have to look at NI.

You’ve proved nothing about grammar schools. All you’ve demonstrated is if you post something foolish on MN you will be called out on it.

Kent has a proper grammar system and is actually in England so would be a better comparison than NI where religion also plays a big part.

Whats foolish about expressing a view, or is it foolish if it does not agree with the consensus of those on the left !.

A lot of teachers quite rightly look for the correct school for their children, who on the whole are more academically able than the majority . So why would they not want a Grammar School or a Scholarship at an Independent. This unless they want to promote Comprehensive Education, with the same gusto as anti- Capital Punishment people do in the States trying to save someone from the 'Chair' !

You can’t compare a single pocket of England and make sweeping comments though. A significantly smaller percentage of children in Kent attend grammars in NI, plus why would religion change educational outcomes?

You only have to look at how oversubscribed many Catholic schools are to answer the question of inpactbof religion on outcomes

In our area, the 5 or more upper grade gcse's this year are
Grammars - 95% +
Non selective Catholic secondary - 75 -80%
Non selective comps - 30-50%

Arguably the Catholic school probably has better quality teaching than the grammars to get results close to them without being selective. It may also be something to do that you generally need a certificate of church attendance to get in, and a proportion of these will be parents who are so committed to their child's education that (rightly or wrongly) they will turn up every Sunday whether Catholic or not to get that certificate signed

Express your view by all means but you seem to be under the impression your opinion is in some way evidence when it is simple anecdote and you don’t seem to understand the difference.

Some teachers send their children to grammar schools, most do not because there are not that many grammar schools. You keep on stating teachers send their children to grammar schools and the only evidence you have presented is the fact your mother and sister have told you this. Can you not see that this is a deeply foolish stance.
Go away, do some research, present evidence.

It is not a necessity to provide qualitative or empirical research to provide anecdotal evidence based on your own observations. Whether my observations are correct or bear any resemblance to consistent patterns within the profession is not important on a site designed for in-formal debate !

So you’re talking crap and just want a bun fight.

OK you’re wrong, and all the teachers I know don’t send their kids to grammar schools. I win the argument cos I’m right.

Grammar schools do not increase students grades. They take the top % they put out the top %. The value added to students is roughly equal to the majority of comprehensives.

Why put 10 year olds through the 11+ to no purpose.

Rather than look direct to an old system such as Grammar schools, I would ask the question what the country needs from a split eduction system. What skills and abilities need recognising early and developing to benefit the UK / Great Briaiin in the years ahead. I really think that Grammars were meant to develop children to be administrators of Empire and an elite of thinkers into Universities. That period is over, what will we need in 10 years time?

I agree we need to develop bright children away from those few who have needs that stop the many from learning and developing more quickly. One size fits all and adding TAs to manage the disruptors etc does not help the UK.

However the focus should be on what is the best curriculum and how to deliver it in an excellent manner.

This article covers independent research that shows that grammar schools do not raise the education standards overall, and in fact do not always even maximise the potential of the brightest students

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/aug/28/english-regions-dominated-by-grammar-schools-do-not-improve-grades-study-says

Mostly, IMO, parents just want to socially segregate their kids from ‘people not like us’ .

How many send the kids Private or looked for a Scholarship to enable this . For the record Anothermoomin are your children academically more able than most of your pupils! Would you be prepared to place your children with the most demanding children you teach, in order to facilitate your belief in Comprehensive Education . I suspect you would like your own academically more able and better behaved children in classes more representative of them than the lowest, achieving child you teach !

You have not been called names or belittled. It has simply been pointed out to you that two people from the same family are not a data set, and no conclusions can be drawn from their opinions.

I'd be more interested in good technical schools that allowed kids to study practical stuff as well as academic. Thinking of all the core trades we all need. Give those less academic kids an education in stuff they might excel at.

Their utmost.

I never said they could be used as evidence in any matter, but it seems the teaching profession has no sense of 'humor' or ability to laugh at itself. Perhaps, you could have said I wish I was paid enough to afford Private Schooling or could live in 'Sevenoaks'. Instead you get so sensitive and defensive, this is a trait both my sister and mother have and it allowed both myself and father to wind both up with remarks Such As 'On Holiday Again' was one of my Business Man Fathers wind up to my Mother. Every time teachers are the easiest to wind up, you need to be less stressed and believe in yourselves and the good you are doing.

Deliberate mistake well done for pointing it out... Though, perhaps a Upper 2nd in Politics from a non RG in 1994 and only CBB means I am not an academic. Though CCB actually shocked the majority of teachers, after being in the bottom 10 of my Grammar at 5th year: 1989 with only 2 B's in History/ French and 4 scraped C's in English/ Maths Chemistry and Biology . Thus a B at A level in History a C in Chemistry and B in General Studies. So be kind to me . I would absolutely had been kicked out today at Sixth Form with 1 6 and 4 5's ..

CBB not CCB..