£610 a week pension demand is insane

[Thisismyfinesthour]

Just read that there is an online petition doing the rounds for a £610 a WEEK pension demand to the government.
WTAF? Is the heat melting some peoples brains? It seems over 5000 have signed it.
Where do they think the money is coming from?

Some people seem to think we enjoy dealing with these tantrums.

Apparently this was “a good thread” until some pesky economist came along and started posting irritating facts and statistics and ruined it all.

No it isn't. How many more times. Nobody on the thread has 'demanded' anything of the sort.

Nobody?

Which means you have a different opinion but are being tight lipped for once.

Tight lipped? What does that mean?

What's your solution?

The subject matter of the thread is unrealistic pensioner demands for welfare, even for those who don’t require it to support themselves perfectly comfortably from their own means. The original post specifically references a petition demanding that state pension welfare is almost tripled.

Many posters on the thread — even if they don’t support the very silly petition — have continually tried to deny the facts about the current percentage of welfare spending that goes to over 65s (the vast majority of which is not even means-tested), continually tried to deny the statistics about the overall percentage of public spending that goes on the over 65s, and continually tried to assert that this is reasonable and their welfare should continue to be uprated above inflation or earnings or 2.5% (the inevitable effect of which, were it to continue in perpetuity, is that eventually state pensions would exceed the entire GDP of the UK, so arguing that this should continue indefinitely is the definition of being innumerate). These are, by definition, unrealistic demands to make on the public finances for all of the reasons that have been explained and evidenced.

So what do you want them to do about it?

Isn’t “welfare” an American term?

No.

At the risk of being slagged off for discussing economic ideas, some off the UK’s leading economists have published a template to ensure we start growing the economy. This is how we boost public spending without having to raise taxes ever more. Thry gave interesting stats on how much pensioners have gained over the past 20 years financially and how much everyone else has lost, esp the young. How you used up be able to eat out and now you can’t even afford a takeaway. Why, and what can be done about it. Let’s hope politicians are listening:

thegap.2030prosperityalliance.co.uk

A good start would be to:

1. show a little humility for the damage that the current generation of retirees has done collectively to the nation’s economy, infrastructure and chances of future prosperity;

2. stop asserting falsely that the elderly cohort has paid sufficient tax to cover for what it has extracted/ is still demanding from the state, the shortfall in which working-age taxpayers are having to pay despite having lower living standards for comparable occupations than the elderly whom they are subsidising;

3. engage in rational discussion about how spending policies need to be changed to save tens of billions per year from the unnecessary proportion of public spending on pensioner welfare — which can be done without leaving a single pensioner in poverty and unable to provide adequately for themselves — and redirect this huge amount of tax revenue which is currently being wasted to vastly underfunded areas of public spending like education and infrastructure so that there is a realistic prospect of hope of economic growth and rising living standards for our young people; and

4. actually vote in the interests of the entire country for policies as described in 3), rather than continuing to vote for goodies for themselves and ongoing decline for everyone else.

Pigs might fly before that happens though, as this thread demonstrates so very clearly.

Show a little humility?!
I have never read such embittered posts.
You seem to have it in for anyone over 66 years of age, for whatever reason. The majority of the posts on here from pensioners or nearly pensioners, agree that the state pension is adequate and doesn't need increasing.

I am sick to death of your facts and statistics. The system is what it is - if we are getting more than we paid in, it isn't our fault - most of the pensioners i know are paying back very generously to their children and younger generations and they will inherit wealth on a scale that my generation never knew ( providing the care homes don't get it).

Whatever wealth we have will be paid back in some shape or form.

So we're not humble enough, won't accept we've paid enough to get a SP, have ruined everything from infrastructure to the future of everyone who's come after us, have voted for the wrong parties, need to hold rational discussions about spending policies (thought that's what the MPs were paid for)

Pigs will fly because your suggestions are just your gripes and wearing hair shirts will change nothing apart from fulfilling your wish for constant contrition which is a rather controlling trait.

The system is what it is - if we are getting more than we paid in, it isn't our fault

Agreed, after all your generation paid for the state pensions of the generations before you that paid NOTHING in.

The fact you’re the first generation to pay NICs your entire work lives but the government didn’t calculate it correctly or redirected and wasted the money isn’t your fault at all.

The bitterness is over the top on here.

Exactly as predicted. No reflection, more personal insults. Quelle surprise.

Economic facts are not “bitter”. They’re just facts even of you don’t like them.

Politicians who are too scared to take on the pensioner lobby are condemning UK living standards to perpetual decline.

stop asserting falsely that the elderly cohort has paid sufficient tax to cover for what it has extracted/ is still demanding from the state, the shortfall in which working-age taxpayers are having to pay despite having lower living standards for comparable occupations than the elderly whom they are subsidising

It isn’t a false assertion because the deal was never to get out no more than what you paid in. The deal was presented to baby boomers, you pay for the generations before you whatever the cost is, and then the generations after you will pay whatever it costs for your old age.

Your premise that it has to be equal in and equal out is what is false. They have paid sufficient tax because sufficient tax was defined by the government as pay in enough to support the generations before you. That was the deal.

As for lower living standards, that’s got nothing to do with state pension or NIC tax rates and everything to do with successive governments committing economic self harm on the country.

Except they’re not facts. They are revisionist nonsense based in bitterness for a current economic situation that has nothing to do with the state pension.

I am not a pensioner by the way, I’m not a baby boomer, - that’s my parents generation.

Politicians who are too scared to take on the pensioner lobby are condemning UK living standards to perpetual decline.

See more bitterness divorced from reality.
Living standards aren’t in decline due to pensioners.
Going after them isn’t going to increase living standards.

You are falling for the oldest political deflection tactic in history.

how spending policies need to be changed to save tens of billions per year from the unnecessary proportion of public spending on pensioner welfare — which can be done without leaving a single pensioner in poverty and unable to provide adequately for themselves

Pigs will fly is accurate, because at the current level of spending, several thousand pensioners die every year of hypothermia because they too poor to have the heat on in winter. And you think tens of billions can be saved without a single pensioner in poverty? News flash, 1.9 million pensioners are in poverty NOW. How are you going to cut 10s of billions and guarenteee not a single pensioner in poverty when 145bn per year still leaves almost 2 million pensioners in poverty?

How is your contention rational? How is it even an economic fact that we can cut 146bn and lift 2 million out of poverty?

The UK fertility rate has been below replacement since the 1970s. There aren’t enough people in the younger generations for that maths to work anymore. Unfortunately the system needs to be overhauled regardless of the deal that was presented to any of us when we started paying tax. The state pension isn’t going to be able to carry on as it is. That is what it is. Those of us with other sources of income need to understand that we can’t expect to receive a state pension when our time comes.

You sound like the Tories, we will cut child benefit to the first 2 children only and not a single child will be in poverty. Quelle surprise, child poverty skyrocketed.

Fertility rate has little to do with it. All our population growth is down to immigration and without it, we’d be far worse off. The maths do still work because they were never meant to be equal in for equal out. They were always meant to be subsidised by the government. The government has just done a piss poor job running the country.

There are enough working age people to support the elderly, if we tax employers correctly.

One problem is the employers are artificially suppressing wages, and depending on PT zero hour work to avoid paying NICs.

Another problem is that there aren’t enough jobs to go round, so that’s more lost tax revenues.

Brexit really fucked the economy and we’ve lost trillions in tax revenues since Brexit.

The state pension isn’t going to be able to carry on as it is. That is what it is.
I agree but that is not the fault of today’s pensioners. FWIW, it needs to be increased because the next waves of retirees aren’t going to be home owners. £210/week isn’t even going to cover rent.

Why don't you run for government?
You seem to know more than everyone else