To think that I'm better than a computer and a team of mechanics!

[MargoLivebetter]

This is potentially a dull tale for those not mechanically minded - but I can't work out whether I feel pissed off and / or vindicated or both.

When I took my car in for its service and MOT, I said to them, I think one of the cylinders is mis-firing slightly. I said that if felt like the car is "pinking" or "knocking" and when idling the revs are too low. The mechanic chuckled and said "oh, we haven't used the term 'pinking' for years now, but yes, well take a look". He wasn't at all rude, but equally I couldn't help wondering that if a man had handed in his car reporting those issues, if the mechanic would have chuckled and been quite so dismissive.

Pick up the car after its service and asked about the mis-firing. Chap smiled and said "oh, yes you were asking about "pinking" weren't you" again in a slightly dismissive 'silly little woman' way. Well, he said you'll be glad to hear that the computer didn't show any faults in the engine. I queried it and said but at idling speed the revs seem too low, as well as the sensation of mis-firing. He replied saying that the car passed its service and MOT with flying colours, so all was well. As in - shut up & go away now!

Roll on two months and the car sounded considerably worse, so I took it back. Well, wouldn't you know one of the cylinder coils is mis-firing and needs to be replaced!!!! I did remind them that I had reported the mis-fire two months ago and was told once again that the computer hadn't reported any faults.

I'm not a car enthusiast but my long dead father was and I paid attention and picked up lots of useful information. Over the years I've fixed various things and diagnosed various issues myself and yet I can guarantee that when I go into a garage and try to discuss my car in a more technical way other than "its making a funny noise" it is like I'm speaking a foreign language. Grrrrr, we need more female mechanics and maybe some thinking outside of the computer diagnostics!

Very common now unfortunately. ‘Mechanics’ who rely
on what the computer says, but don’t the ability to analyse faults themselves or question what the computer is telling them.

A friend took her car to the main dealer once for an electrical fault. ‘Computer said’ it needed a new fusebox and wiring loom, which they were going to charge £2000 for. So she took it to a back street mechanic instead. He actually inspected it, and said it was obvious that a wiring connector was damaged and needed replacing. He sourced and fitted a new one and charged here £75 to fix it. That completely
solved the problem.

It’s an urban myth that you need a computer to diagnose anything on a modern car. Whilst they are controlled by an ECU now, the fundamental basics of how an engine works are still the same
as they were 50 years ago.

Many problems can still be diagnosed using the old methods. A misfire for example, any decent mechanic will be able to hear it’s not running right. Disconnecting each plug lead one by one to see when the sound changes can help narrow down which cylinder is the problem.

My partner called the RAC out on an old vehicle yesterday (over 20 years). The man checked a couple of things but was stuck because his computer couldn't help him. He had a computer with diagnostic info with pictures for modern cars, but didn't seem to have any actual expertise. I dread to think how much "computer says no" nonsense we're going to get as AI gets used increasingly.

Who would be offended by my pinking shears? Should I call them the scissors with the zig zag blades?

I’ll make sure to tell all my techs that you think their methodology is an urban myth, I’m sure they’ll piss themselves laughing.

Whilst the basic mechanical action of an engine hasn’t changed, the control systems very much have.

Your method for identifying a misfire is exactly what we’d use on an old car without OBD. Modern cars don’t have plug leads, they’re coil-on-plug and you could mess about taking things apart, disconnecting coils and identifying the misfire that way, I’m sure the customers would love the extra labour charges 😂. Pretty much any running issue on a modern car is going to require electronic diag to narrow it down. As a PP said though, the skill is in interpreting the huge amount of data that they can provide.

My son is a mechanic and he works with a lot of mechanics who act like yours did. He's always telling me most of them couldn't find their arse unless the computer told them where it was. He has no patience for knobheads, he gets it from me.

One of my recent garage visits comprised of the bloke telling me I shouldn't believe everything I read on google. My car had a catastrophic break down not long after and now requires a new engine!

@Shade17 It is a myth that you can’t do anything on a modern car without plugging it into a computer. People are often amazed that my husband services our 5 year old car himself on the driveway. They don’t realise that most oil changes / brake changes etc are done exactly the same way as they always have been and are still very simple.

Yes computers have their uses. However as in the OPs case, the problems come when a ‘tech’ plugs a car into a computer and only does what it tells them, whereas a mechanic will apply their knowledge and experience as well.

No cars dont have plug leads any more. However it takes seconds to pull off a coil pack to see if it makes any difference.

Agghhh, the patronising tone and the slight chuckle when you dare to provide some context or use a word that seems out of date to them. It drives me mad.

It's the same with some tradesmen who come to fix things at my house. The most annoying thing is when they don't listen and then refuse to spend the time to diagnose the issue properly.

Yes, I know that their time will be charged as labour, but it's frustrating when they immediately jump to a conclusion - which is usually to rip everything out and replace everything.

Also, we don't live in the carburetor age. If you used the term 'pinking' I'm not really surprised you weren't listening to! That was a historic, and fairly offensive term when I started training in '94. It comes from the age when we happily referred to people as backward.

@ECGG Don't know anything about cars but, like some others, I am genuinely interested in why you say "pinking" is fairly offensive. The only context I had heard of it before this thread is pinking shears, which I can assure you is still a term widely used in sewing circles.

Why on earth would someone be amazed that he can service a newish car on the drive? It’s a piece of cake. I never claimed that a computer is required to service a car! (OK, maybe for some service interval resets).

As for taking seconds to pop the connector off a coil pack, it does. The question is how long does it take to access that coil pack, remove the plug and then build the car back up to the point that it runs so you can see if it’s that cylinder? I can tell you engines require the inlet manifold to be removed to access some of the coil packs. Many others require at least some strip down to reach them. Of course, we could charge the customer hours of labour to do that or we could find out in 2 mins.

Technology really isn’t the enemy here, as I said previously it’s knowing how to interpret what the data tells you and sometimes what it’s not telling you.

@Shade17 I don't think technology is the enemy at all, but I can't help wondering why my observations were over-ruled by the computer. I've been driving my car for 3 years. After 3 years, I have a fairly good idea of what sounds and feels normal for the car. The car itself is 6 years old and has a fairly basic petrol engine. The idling revs were too low and it felt rough and on the verge of stalling.

Checking the coils in my car is not a complicated or time-consuming job, it just requires the plastic air filter box to be removed and then you have full access. Given the issues that I reported, are you honestly telling me that you would have completely ignored what I said and just agreed with the computer?

I never claimed that you did claim that a computer was required to service a car. My point was that the general consensus amongst the public seems to be that absolutely nothing can be done on a modern car without plugging it into a computer. You and I know that’s not the case. (Service lights can normally be reset by pressing a combination.or butttons/pedals in a certain order)

I’m not saying technolgy is the enemy. Diagnostic machines are extemely useful. The problems
only come when ‘Techs’ blindly follow what the machine tells them and aren’t able to apply any critical. Replacing a MAF sensor for example because the computer says it indicates a fault. When in fact it’s more likely to be a leak in the induction system causing the error rather than the sensor itself being faulty.

It’s a tough one, with no codes and an emissions test passed I’d be loathed to chuck parts at a car, spending someone else’s money. The motor trade is already vilified (often quite rightly) as it is for doing unnecessary work. I think that’s probably where a conversation with the customer is the best course of action, with suggestions such as firing the parts cannon at £X or spending another hour on diag at £X. At least the customer can then make an informed choice.

It's a classic case of computer said no. It's hardly exclusive to the car industry. We've all experienced it sometime. It's a sad day when we started to rely on computers instead of letting them assist us. Well done OP for being pushy on it.

Thank you for taking the time to answer. I do get your point about not wanting to be seen to do unnecessary work.

This is a toughie.

We have an old school mechanic trained in his one man band by his now retired Dad also an old school mechanic.

He is never patronising ever and he explains every single thing he has done to the car in detail again, never patronising but he is not into the computer stuff in a meaningful way and he can’t fix electric cars so he is a little nervy that his time will come although I don’t think so because a small amount of regular training would get him up to speed pretty quickly.

Like everything I think a combination of keeping up with tech and tonnes and tonnes and tonnes of experience fixing a vast number of issues are probably what makes the best mechanic.

@MargoLivebetter I’d be changing yours with that experience. I don’t remotely have the lingo and my guy takes in whatever information you give him and uses it to fix the bloody car.

@MargoLivebetter I am a man and I have had this a lot. It happens increasingly frequently.

First one was a sensor (£35) that two garages wanted to remove the engine to replace. Admittedly, it is tricky to get to, but removing the engine? Really? I eventually found a garage who said they could do it without removing the engine, and they wanted to verify my diagnosis (I get that, customers always think they know) and used the same diagnostic computer I've got.

Second one was my late wife's car, I could hear a noise in the gearbox. It took them ages to be able to hear it and agree there was a noise. I got a small laugh though as they suggested that the gearbox oil hadn't been changed. I said they could look it up as my wife had used them exclusively for servicing. They said 'we don't do gearboxes' to which my response was 'changing the gearbox oil is a standard service item, did she get a discount for you not doing it, or did you at least tell her you were doing only half a job so she would know?' I watched the chap squirm for a while before leaving. Fuckers.

In fairness to the gearbox garage a gearbox oil change is not normally a standard service item in the sense that it’s included within the normal service scope. There will almost always be separate line items for the parts/labour involved in a gearbox service. Customers should be advised that a gearbox service is due but it’s a regularly declined or deferred item.

It is on the manufacturer schedule, so I would have expected them to change it at the specified interval. I agree that if it was a generic oil change service, but not one that is purporting to follow manufacturer items.

Even on the manufacture’s schedule it’ll still be an additional cost. Your wife should’ve at least been offered it at the appropriate service though.

Yes, I (and she) expected to pay varying amounts for the type of service it was. The manufacturer states that for a 60,000 mile service the gearbox oil should be changed. Taking it for a 60,000 mile service, I would expect to a) have the gearbox oil changed, and b) be charged for a 60,000 mile service and all the items that need doing. Only one part of that happened.

If you’ve got an invoice with a line item for the gearbox service then obviously that’s not acceptable.

This is where it gets tricky. My wife had all that, and has the invoice for a 60,000 mile service. She wouldn't necessarily have checked each line item, however if you take a car to a manufacturer dealer for a service, in this instance a 60,000 mile service, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that the dealer, representing the manufacturer, carry out all the items that the manufacturer recommend for the 60,000 mile service.

ETA - this was certainly my experience with a different manufacturer.

I work at a main dealer

This is the way of the world now. The Techs just plug the car in to read any faults. Old school mechanics are dying out

The funny thing is that the Techs would be offended if they were referred to as a Mechanic as they think that job title is beneath them