AIBU to not know whether to stay or go?

[susannahk]

I want to leave DH but most of all I want our children to be ok.

DS is almost 4 and DD is 2. They adore their dad.

I can tolerate many things, but what I am finding it increasingly difficult to tolerate is DH's... mood? Attitude. He is rude, abrasive, snappy. I am on egg shells constantly. Occasionally he'll be in a good mood, something will have gone well at work, and it'll be great for a week or so - we'll be able to have normal conversations, discuss things we disagree on reasonably, joke around... but it always goes back. Worst of all, now that DS is getting older, DH starting to do it to him as well.

I don't want to go on and on with examples but believe me that the way he speaks to DS sometimes is unacceptable. He doesn't shout (or rarely) or swear or name-call, he's not abusive, but he is impatient, rude, critical, and seems to expect DS to have the reasoning skills of an adult. DS is a delight. Sometimes pushes boundaries, as all children do, but overwhelmingly wants to please us both and really tries to follow instructions. He's also very sensitive, but kind of masks it. Not sure DH really acknowledges this.

I have spoken to DH about the way he interacts with us, he is always very apologetic, agrees with me, but it never sticks. I don't want DS thinking he needs to accept being spoken to like that, or that it's ok to speak to anyone like that.

If DH ever goes away for work, I feel so calm, all my anxiety fades away. Yes, it's hard with two kids, nobody to watch them if I need to do something, but I still prefer it to when he's here.

However, all I really want is to do what's best for the kids, and I don't know what that is.

They love their dad. He's lovely to them a lot of the time. It's just if they do anything slightly out of line, like take too long with their shoes, accidently drop something, touch something they shouldn't. To clarify, of course I believe in boundaries, saying no, all of that is so important, but I think you can do it gently. I don't know why you wouldn't, when doing it gently works and doesn't end in tears!

I think DS in particular would be very destabilised by us splitting up. He loves us having family time together.

Also, of course, they would still be spending solo time with their dad. And I wouldn't be there to kind of act as a buffer or redirect if he starts a tirade. They'd just be exposed to it and unable to defend themselves. So is it better if we stay together so at least I'm always around? At least until they're older and a bit less vulnerable?

Is there a best time to do this kind of thing?

Sorry that is so rambling. I'm really feeling lost. I can't speak to anyone in real life about this.

YABU - you should leave (when???) and the children will be happier.

YANBU - stay if you can tolerate it to maintain stability for the children. You can leave when they're older if you need to.

No one can make this decision for you but I’d leave. You are walking on egg shells and your children will start to as well. The fact you feel the need to be there to ‘protect them’ is very telling! It will be quite likely if he becomes a EOW dad he will behave much better as the time is short and they won’t get on his nerves.
Get yourself organised.

If I knew for sure that his attitude would improve as an EOW dad, it would be a much easier decision. My fear is that he might get worse - he really struggles with stress, and looking after two kids solo for a weekend would overwhelm him I think, and he'd snap.

I am also trying to consider that I may be being over-protective, which I do tend towards. Maybe sometimes I want to swoop in to protect them when they don't need it. But like the other day DS was playing and totally by accident fell onto something and broke it. Luckily he was fine, but DH didn't ask if he was ok, just started guilting him about breaking it. I defended him immediately and said he did nothing wrong, it wasn't his fault, and checked he wasn't hurt, and then DH did stop and I think probably felt bad, but by then DS had already started crying. If I hadn't been there I think DH would have gone on even more. I'm worried it will really chip away at DS' self esteem, his faith in his own ability to make decisions.

Idfk.

You're such a good mum to be thinking about this.

I don't know what to say though. I think unfortunately you're right about how he'd be and it would really damage them. Argh how can a grown adult be so clueless and nasty towards children's natural behaviour and limitations.

Really sorry for you. Do you know if he'd actually want to see them if you split? Does he have a mum nearby who he'd be likely to dump them on? Is there a way to theoretically phrase it as part of a 'casual' chat?

Maybe you should sit down and tell him calmly that you are thinking seriously of leaving. Just be honest. Without attacking him lay out everything you have said here. I did the same with my husband and his behaviour changed significantly, he is in many ways a different man. Now, due to serious past trauma I will probably still leave but it has allowed me to lengthen the timeframe for my children's sake (have a disabled son). It's jarring and hard to accept but sometimes men will not change unless they really, truly believe they will lose their family.

I think your children are already quite young and you're still in relatively early days of parenting and yet you already feel like this? I think it will only get worse.

I would say that have you actually spoken to him about this? Told him that his moods and erratic behaviour makes all of you feel very edgy? Asked him if he'd consider doing some counselling to work on it? I assume you think he'll get very defensive and MORE angry and that may well be true, but if he knows how serious it is and how much it might impact the fate of your marriage, perhaps he'll surprise you?

What kind of a dad is he at a practical level? is he stepping up to do his fair share of the night wakings and the organisation and taking them out by themselves etc? because if not, at best, he'll be EOW but most likely, he'll disappear completely from their lives anyway. And yes, your DC will really struggle with that - i'm not going to sugar coat that - but feeling constantly on edge will, in my opinion, be worse for them. As they get older, what does that look like? Constant criticism because nothing is ever quite right? Fear to bring friends home because he might hvae a mood? Nervousness to tell the truth about somethign going wrong becuase of how he will respond? Hiding things in case he disapproves? Trust me, these are not things you want for your children.

PS I know a dad like this, my good friend's dh. He was treated that way as a child and never faced it and processed it. So he's just repeating the same thing.

She's staying with him for similar reasons, her dc are 12 and nearly 16. He's been an arse to them, esp the older boy, his whole life. I even anonymously contacted school and they said they'd keep a careful eye on the boy.

I'm inclined to think dads like this are going to be like that anyway. The shielding a mum can provide is helpful, but doesn't remove the damage.

So, better to see him more rarely, than every single day. At least then, the main (mum's) home is a safe place.

He would definitely want to see them. And I'd want them to see him! They'd be devastated not to. He loves them, and he's great in some ways - he'll make stuff for them, I can rely on him to get them fed if I'm out (I hear some men forget this??), he gives them hugs, kisses, praises them, says he loves them... it's just unfortunately his short fuse with any kind of "out of line" behaviour and as you say not understanding normal developmental phases and just expecting them to be little adults. It is a frequent, daily occurrence, not just occasional getting frustrated.

I'm so sorry.

It's almost worse they're so bonded to him - the people I've met in support groups with a parent like this who've been least damaged, were the ones who could emotionally separate at an earlier age.

Does he have any insight at all into his problem? Any sign he wants to change?

I’d maybe sit him down and say that his behaviour isn’t acceptable and everything you’ve said here and that it absolutely has to change, otherwise you’ll consider leaving him. And mean it.

I think you're right. I have mentioned it before, and I often say things in the moment like "please be polite" (probably a stupid and annoying thing for me to keep piping up with but tbf he does kind of listen) but I don't think I've properly sat down with him and laid it down in these terms. I have never truly implied that I'm considering leaving.

I think he'd be receptive and I think he'd feel pretty guilty, but I also think he'd make an effort for a while and then slip back. Ultimately, it's his nature I think. Maybe I'm being pessimistic. I need to try this first. I've been too cowardly before, not wanting to rock the boat.

@susannahk This is a difficult one and I agree with other posters OP. I think your first port of call is to have an open and honest conversation with him. Tell him what you've told us and that you will leave him if he doesn't change. From what you've said it sounds as though you'd be safe to have that conversation and he does seem to have some insight into his personality problem. But obviously you can't spend years of your life walking on eggshells and hoping for change either. You've got to make it clear that you mean every word you say.

The first step is to actually discuss the problems with him. Nobody jumps straight from I’m a bit unhappy in this marriage to leaving without first conversing. Have a heart to heart and let him know what’s bothering you. Maybe couples counselling could help too? I wouldn’t advise jumping headfirst into divorce without trying to fix things first.

Thank you. Yes. I suspect it may have been what his father was like. He's said before things like "sorry, I just do it because that's how I was raised" but then he's also often said that his dad was so great and loving. It's like he hasn't really processed how bad that kind of behaviour is, or probably how it affected him. Sad thing is, I think he was a very sweet, particularly innocent, thoughtful little boy too. And now... I rarely glimpse that side of him. The thought of my own lovely DS becoming like he is is a really devastating thing to contemplate.

Interestingly, he and his dad hardly ever talk now. Though there was no big falling out or anything.

His mum, by the way, is lovely. I get on with her very well. She's lovely with the kids. I can't imagine her being unpleasant to her children when they were young, but who knows... it's easier with grandchildren than your own children sometimes I imagine!

Your children will be damaged by this, they will have low self esteem and lack of confidence, and their emotional needs are not being met.

You need to put them first.

I agree the choice isn't just stay put and cope or leave. A serious conversation, giving him a chance to change seems reasonable. I remember my ex was like this with ds especially. Would stand over him shouting. Eventually I asked him to.imagine how he would feel if his 6'6 rugby playing mate stood two inches from him.and belowed in his face. That struck a cord and he did change his approach.

I wouldn’t say leaving now or staying and minimising are necessarily the way to go initially. I’m not in your relationship but if it’s generally good and this is something that’s relatively isolated in terms of behaviour and could be fixed (properly dealt with actual commitment and recognition not “I’ll work on it” and slips back) then I would say it’s worth trying. If the love isn’t there, or if this is just one of a list of many issues with his behaviour towards you all then that’s another story.

For the record my dad was highly critical, short fuse, but also many other awful things and I’m grateful my mum got out - many times he wasn’t great during my rare time with him but 90% of the time I had a calm, stable home with my mum and I felt glad he didn’t marr my entire childhood or my relationship with my her, for want of a better phrase. So sometimes leaving can be better than sucking it up and having eggshells forever. Others may disagree but this is my experience. On the other hand your husband could be a guy with triggers he doesn’t realise for reasons he’s never worked through that can’t deal with certain situations, but actually isn’t a terrible person and could probably get better at managing things with some support. Only you know where he falls between.

I think it does start with a frank conversation, or letter if you feel you’d be able to express and get everything out better. Would he be open to some sort of therapy? Not necessarily to deal with if he thinks it is childhood stuff but actual pragmatic ways to stop the fuse exploding, to work through his stress in the moment? I guess the first step is whether he even sees a need to change, and you can both go from there.

A lot of men are influenced by their fathers and it's most often fathers that have the shorter fuse rather than mothers. They want their sons to act like "men" even at 4 years old. It's something universal across many cultures in my experience. I assume his dad had some redeeming features as your DH says he was loving, and likewise you say your kids adore their father. No, he hasn't processed how bad the behaviour is because he's never really been told, not properly. Do you think he has any idea that you'd consider leaving him? I imagine that's the last thing he wants?