Is this completely unethical?

[26823Days]

My mother is 83 and has a lot of health issues. She has very limited vision, had a stroke in 2022 resulting in ongoing cognitive decline, and she has a physical disability now so that any able to drive or walk much. Luckily, we’re a close family and so her three kids are all nearby and we do a lot for her which is great because it means she can manage at home. At least once a day, one of us will bring her someone for some fresh air and to do her shopping etc. She’s happy with this setup.

Like a lot of families, children seem to be given specific roles. My sister is the one she’ll turn to her help with things like meals, filling out forms, anything medical. My brother is called first if it’s anything to do with house or garden maintenance, or if she needs drives to places further afield, I’m the one who gets called about anything to do with banking or legal, or if she had trouble with her phone or tv- basically, I’m tech support

Just to be clear, we all love our mother and do our very best for her.

She rang me this morning while I was at work to ask me for her broadband password. I told her she doesn’t have broadband. She couldn’t really understand what I meant and wouldn’t entirely know what broadband is, but she knows it’s needed for computers. She’s never used a computer in her life and doesn’t have a smartphone- we’ve tried one with her but it was a disaster so she went back to her basic phone that’s specifically designed for older people.

I asked her why she needed a broadband password and she said “I’ll need it for the telly man”. Long story short, her tv provider made a sales call to her yesterday and mum’s take on it is that they’re giving her free tv for a year and she’ll have loads more channels (despite having about fifty million currently and rotating between three constantly). She then asked me if I could take a morning off work next week to be there for “the telly man”. Turns out she’s signed up to a very advanced package requiring the installation of a new satellite dish, and the “free” element is the installation but her monthly bill will go up significantly. I’d imagine the sales people did explain that to her, but she didn’t grasp it. When I mentioned the satellite dish, she got very flustered because she’s terribly house proud and got upset at the idea of wires being run through walls. I also told her that, without broadband, she’d be worse off with the new package because a lot of the service is streaming. On top of that, because of her vision problems and general struggles to remember things, I don’t think she’d be able to adapt to a new tv remote and she gets very frustrated when she can’t get something working.

After an hour-long call with her tv provider where o had to conference mum in to the call as the account holder, I was finally able to get the planned order cancelled and “the telly man” won’t be arriving. Annoyingly, when I explained she didn’t have broadband, they did try to sell her a package

Key to this is that this is not the first time something like this has happened. Last year, her phone company sold her an upgrade to the latest iPhone along with a data package any 13 year old would be envious of. She mentioned it in passing to my brother, and it took me half a day to get that cancelled.

There’s been a few other issues over the past couple of years. Like her house insurers selling her worldwide travel insurance when the poor woman hadn’t been on holiday for a decade and can’t walk 20 steps.

While she seems to be savvy enough to scams, she seems to think she’s getting one over on service providers when they’re offering her a deal, but she doesn’t realise that she’s not actually getting something for free, but getting more expense and usually buying a product she can’t use. We’ve been lucky so far that I’ve been able to cancel most things before the contract kicks in but there are a few services she’s paying for monthly that she physically can’t use and she’s stuck in a contract and we have no option other than to pay.

After this morning’s call ended, I stayed on the line and asked the tv provider if they could put some kind of flag on her account to say she’s vulnerable and shouldn’t be called. They said no, she’d have to give that instruction.
Mum won’t do that- her view is that it’s her money and her house and she can do what she wants if she thinks she’s getting a good deal. Fine in theory but she then gets herself into an awful state when she’s suddenly faced with not having a phone/having strangers do installs in the house etc.

After the call, I downloaded the app for the provider, used mum’s account number to setup an account and now I’ve updated her setting so that my phone number is listed as her number and so any sales calls she gets will come to me and I’ll shut them down.

I know if I tell her, she’ll be angry. She was very grateful for my help this morning and relieved when it was resolved, but in another few weeks she’ll have forgotten this and she’ll get another sales call and we’re back to square one.

AIBU to do this?

I know it probably comes across as controlling but it’s a mix of a) hating to see how worked up she gets when she realises she’s signed up for something that’s not at all beneficial, and b) being sick of spending hours on the phone to contact centre dealing with this stuff when it happens.

Isn't the problem with an LPA that once you've activated it, the person can't do things for themselves, the person with the power of attorney has to do it? At least that's how the old-style EPA worked, which my dad had.

My mum set an LPA up years ago but we've never used it, even though there are times when it would be easier if I could just phone someone up and deal with an issue. But my mum can do things herself and she doesn't eg need me to run her bank account for her.

But to answer your main point OP no, I think you've been very sensible.

No it's not a problem. You can have POA for someone with capacity and they can continue to sort their own finances, but the POA can also make decisions or actions things if needed.

Think I saw Martin Lewis talking to a HoC committee this week saying that vulnerable people shouldn't have to register loads of times with different companies as vulnerable. He said how wrong it was that they have to contact gas/water/electric/phone/internet provider etc etc and it should be able to be done once. This would be a great idea.

I didn’t think so. DH and I are both of sound mind and have a couple of different POAs in place for each other. Think it’s more of a “better to have it and never need it than to need it and not have it” thing.

I’ll try the LPA conversation with her again. She’s never used an ATM and doesn’t have online banking but I’m the one who has her bank card (my siblings are aware- it’s not an issue) so I take out cash when she requests it and drop it into her She used to keep quite a bit of cash in the house and we were worried she’d be robbed so she agreed to a proper account of her own a few years back but she’s never once used an ATM or used a debit card in a shop etc. I do see her statements from time to time too and there isn’t anything surprising in terms of direct debits but I do keep an eye.
She does have an awful fondness for those also JML infomercials so I’ll regularly get a call asking me to “send away” for the latest gadget that’ll revolutionise her life
My sister then tends to remove the unopened boxes from under the stairs and drop them to the charity shop a year later.

Might see if mum would spend a morning with me ringing various providers she using and adding me in as an authorised person on her accounts. I don’t want control of her accounts, I just want to be able to advocate for her.

She’s lovely but she was always one to turn a blind eye if it meant going to the bother of leaning to do something that someone else could do for her instead.

No, for the finance LPA, the attorney can act on their behalf with their consent (needed while they have capacity) in a piecemeal fashion. I could sort my DMs house insurance this year and she could sort it next year. I could manage her utilities bills until she pops her clogs, while she continued to manage her own current account. Or I could do absolutely everything and leave her to sip a G+T

It's different for health LPA. I couldn't do anything at all unless and untill they don't have capacity

You have absolutely done the right thing.
I do understand, and feel exactly the same as you when dealing with my mother’s affairs.

Time to get a Power of Attorney and then you will be able to make those decisions for her - if she wants you to

You've done the right thing; I'd have done the same.

My sibling and I have LPA for our parents, but it took them until their mid-80s to decide it would be a sensible thing to do and they did all the setting up themselves, just asking us to sign the documents. They needed to feel in control of what was happening and did it when they were ready rather than when my sibling and I suggested it. It does give us peace of mind.

That sounds very stressful, and their behaviour isn’t on at all (yours is fine). My older parent is a bit better with tech, but TV needing WiFi and sign ins really does cause problems. They had a letter to say her provider is sending a new router and of course I’ll have to set it all up. They understand QR codes but they are so fiddly on the screen they struggle. There is a whole generation being ignored - so much for accessibility and inclusivity.

Your mother is 83 and you don’t have PoA set up? What if she has a stroke? You will have to apply to the Court of Protection.

She’s never used an ATM and doesn’t have online banking but I’m the one who has her bank card (my siblings are aware- it’s not an issue) so I take out cash when she requests it and drop it into her She used to keep quite a bit of cash in the house and we were worried she’d be robbed so she agreed to a proper account of her own a few years back but she’s never once used an ATM or used a debit card in a shop etc.

This is really naive - you should by rights have PoA to be doing this. You need legal authority to withdraw cash from someone else’s account on their behalf.

^ This
DM will do the same, then I spend hours getting it cancelled. DM hates it herself but it sounds good at the time, it’s only after she thinks oh… I don’t want it.

An interim step is 'Trusted friend or family' where you get limited access.

Yeah it's for her own good. She doesn't actually want all these bizarre fancy sales packages, she doesn't fully understand what they even are and is just being taken in.
If she ever does want anything like broadband or a new telly etc you wouldn't be stopping her. But she needs that extra level of support I think at this point.

Thankfully my late DH set up LPA (both types) for me and DSis while he still had capacity. My late MIL left it too late and only agreed after she had a dementia diagnosis then we couldn’t get anyone to sign it.

Me and my DH are in our 60s and have just sorted ours. We’re comfortable with who we’ve picked as attorneys and the protections in place.

If for no other reason that the costs of setting up POAs are never going to go down, we just got on with it. Of course, accidents, strokes and ill health can strike at any age, so it makes matters so much easier for our families.

It Is very limited though. If DM has a fall and ends up in hospital they won’t be able to deal with her bank accounts or represent her medical needs either.

Agree. LPA is much better.

You know that it’s not really possible to set up a POA against someone’s wishes, don’t you? In the absence of a court order saying she’s incapable of making those decisions for herself, there’s nothing we can do other than try and reason with her.

Also, can you show me the legislation that shows me where I’ve acted illegally when my mother is sitting in my car and says “pull over and take £20 out of my account for the milkman, please” and I do it and hand her £20? She’s nearly blind, has poor mobility, and won’t sign a LPA (and she’s nowhere near the stage where a court would get involved) so what do you propose?

My Sister did this for my stepdad (her dad) it is just easier so she gets calls and emails for appointments so he doesn't get the letters, these companies preying on obviously vulnerable elderly people.

Edited for typo

No shit, and so you need to explain to her why it’s necessary. That what you’re already doing for her technically requires PoA. If she has another stroke it will take between 6-9 months to get a deputyship via Court of Protection, in the mean time, no-one will be able to make medical or financial decisions on her behalf.

Are you keeping accounts for her and detailing all your cash withdrawals, keeping all the receipts? If money went missing from her account, could you prove it wasn’t you?

I have done this with my mum. Her account but my phone number and email

I don't think what you've done is unethical - I think what these companies are doing is unethical! My sister has her phone number listed for all of my mum's stuff - my mum is 83 and pretty deaf so she can't really deal with anyone on the phone. She has given permission for my sister to deal with the bank etc and we do have joint POA but that would only be used if she lacked capacity, which she doesn't at the moment.

Its deliberate, my 101 yo nana had this, also funeral providers terrifying her and trying to make her sign plans. We had a scheme where she put the calls on speakerphone and said "hold on a minute, my grandson is a solicitor and does all my calls with me, I'll just get him" that got rid of 70% of them. Then my son who does not fuck about would enter the call and ask them a series of challenging questions regarding how they got her number, why they are calling, he ALWAYS instigated a GDPR request and basically made their lives a misery as revenge. They are parasites and you should do all you can to protect your mum.

@26823Days It is a safeguarding issue and you are definitely not being unreasonable to set your number up as her 'gatekeeper'.

Absolutely the right thing to do but yeah you really do need to explain the PoA stuff to her again and all get together to get her to understand what it really means and what an unholy mess you will potentially be in if its NOT in place when it is absolutely needed.

We got it all sorted for my Dad just a week before he started having horrible seizures and being really out of it in hospital. Fortunately he was in agreement and the delay in sorting it was down to everyone just putting it off rather than any disagreement with the concept, in fact he is delighted he does NOT have to bother with a whole range of complicated crap.

I’ve had to do something similar with my Mum. She’s pretty savvy with sales calls, but gets confused with technology and can’t cope with the majority of communication being through email. It feels like an invasion of her privacy, but I now have to have access to and check all her emails for things like insurance renewal as she can no longer cope with the account.