AIBU to wonder if a private school is unable to survive by fee-paying funding, could they consider getting state funding?

[Readytoplay]

I just want to start by saying this is by no means a private bashing post.

It seems daily I see another private school announce their closure (although it is nearing the end of the academic year, so I appreciate that there will be more regular at the moment). It’s always due to financial difficulties, and I find it really sad for the current students and staff.

What I don’t get is why these schools don’t consider changing to state funding, probably as a ‘free school’. As surely this would be more beneficial to both the students and families as it means that they would be able to stay in a school that they know and with less of a disruption to their education.

Yes, it would mean that certain things would have to be scaled back as the state budget would likely be less than what they previously had. But the state budget (as pitiful as it is—but that’s a completely separate discussion) would at least cover the basic costs such as maintenance and teaching (apparently staff wages are similar in both sectors).

For me there would be many pros to this. Most importantly the kids wouldn’t have to transfer at an awkward moment (during GCSES, Y6 if from a prep etc) which would not only disrupt their education, but could also make it hard to integrate into life at a new school. It would take the load off of nearby state schools (more choice for parents, less overcrowding in primary and comps).

For what it’s worth: I don’t have any children and I was fully state educated, so I don’t really have any skin in the game. But I just wonder why few rarely do, when to me it’s an obvious idea for these schools to look into.

Would be interested to hear from people who have experienced their school shutting.

Come again?!

There are restrictions around free schools. You need to meet the criteria and they only approve them in waves.

But more logistically, a lot of private schools run class sizes that are smaller than state schools and, especially in some older buildings, the classrooms couldnt take more people, so they'd be unviable with state school funding. Its one of the main selling points for a lot of schools, alongside extra pastoral staff.

I would say no thriving school is closing. The media like to create a storm over private schools permanently shutting their doors as a government bashing tool, but when you read more deeply, the schools have either been in decline or are merging with another stronger/more popular school. With a declining birthrate, we do not need more state schools (or any schools). In my area, schools are reducing their intakes quite dramatically - from three form intakes to one form.The most popular/outstanding schools are still full, they just have a wider catchment area. The same is happening with private schools.

Where would the money come to uphold all of these extra schools? Private schools are incredibly expensive to run and most of them are in historic old buildings.

I'm not sure what incentive the gov would have to chalk up the money to keep more schools open than necessary.

Parents pay for school fees to access things a state education doesn't offer: SEND support; single sex; extra-curric opportunities; prestige/status. What happens once a private school becomes a state school and all of the parents just pull their DC out and back into private education? The school closes (again).

For context, I work at a private school (an open one - for now). I don't think any major reform will happen until there are simply too many kids for state places.

The Kings school in tynemouth was a private school that merged and then became a state school.

It does happen occasionally - GDST academised their two schools in the Liverpool area but there are really strict criteria.

I’d love to see the parents’ reactions when they had to double class sizes and half the teachers leave.
I guess they just close if they can’t survive then if the LA needs a ready made school they could purchase it but very unlikely it would be suitable for a state school.

QEGGS in Lancashire did

I didn’t realise that there were restrictions. I thought they could just be set up as long as you had all the necessities in place (a building, safeguarding-related stuff, etc.).

I appreciate that class sizes would likely increase, although I am unsure of how much a difference this would make to pre-existing classes, and the increase would likely begin with future intakes. Also, there are state primaries near me that only have 16-20 in a year (semi-rural area), so it’s surely possible at least?

I didn’t realise that private schools had more pastoral staff; I was under the impression that staffing levels were at a similar level.

Do you know why they did this?

Belvedere ? It’s been an academy for nearly 20 years

I think the GDST took them on when they became academies, rather than turning them into academies.

There’s a couple of schools in Bradford that did this. I think the most recent was Bradford Girls Grammar which was private and went state about 10y ago. Presumably there enough pupil numbers and demand for an all girls state school at the time to justify it.

A school nearish to me did this, albeit a few years ago now. Same teachers, same premises. Quality of education has slowly slipped though. Used to be a really good school. It's still OK but nothing special anymore, and certainly not as good as some other fab state schools within a 10 mile radius.

Along the lines of Michaela in Wembley or Toby Young’s place in (?) Ealing….

It’s a very interesting idea - you could approach Katharine Birbalsingh?

The small schools are struggling hugely to be viable. There are some additional funds for rural schools in certain areas, but lots of small schools merge or close. They do things like share heads to make it work.

Independent schools vary a lot so it might work for some, but class sizes cant always physically increase as the room is too small. Its not unusual to run a greater range of subjects too again needing more staff.

@Readytoplay i'm genuinely confused why you think this is an option?

I don't have children, I have no skin in the game

But.... yeah, I'm confused. Why did you think it was an option? Perhaps you've heard about some exceptional cases where it happened. But they would be highly unusual.

I mean, imagine the joy of Parents if they schools suddenly became free of charge and with all the same lovely infrastructure and staff!!

The state will only fund another state school if it agrees there is need for a lot more state places in that area.

If the private school closure leads to a huge leap in demand for state places and all the existing state schools are full then yes I imagine they might consider approving this.

But it’s more likely that a whole load of the closed school’s parents will shift their DC to a different private school. Plus the private school may have been struggling for numbers anyway if it closed. So a private school closure doesn’t necessarily mean a big surge in demand for state.

Quite a few schools in Liverpool have changed from private to state over the past couple of decades. Housing development and lack of school places in some areas means that Liverpool city council has actively supported it.

Someone might correct me here, but I think the state would only consider funding if they felt the school was running in a way that was most compatible with the rules of state education, and they felt there was a need for more state schools in the area. If the closure of a private school was

• going to massively increase the need for state school places in the area
• there was maybe some need for more state school places anyway
• there were not state schools running with many places
• the private school was working along the same lines as state schools using properly trained staff who could and were wiling to, quickly adapt the teaching to follow the state national curriculum

the yes it might be advantageous for the state to keep the private school and take over it's running.

In a lot of cases though, private schools that close maybe quite small and state schools around may have places. At this point the only affect on the state of taking on the private school is to have to pay for a run a small school they don't need. There's no point doing that. Plus the teaching may not really work to state requirements, and don't even have to be trained teachers, so the state end up with school places they don't need, not even run to meet legal requirements.

Bristol Cathedral Choir School is another school that was previously independent but now state run, so there are obviously quite a few of them.

An independent has recently closed near where I live and some people are hoping that it will be able to reopen as a special school.

Purely in terms of cash, state funding is £7k per year per pupil. Independent schools are 2/3 times that.

The buildings are not designed for larger class sizes, facilities are designed for delivering education differently.

If an independent school closes they have structural financial issues which likely includes debt that needs to be satisfied before any transformation.

The other issue people choose to ignore is there is a massive decline in the birth rate. Fewer school places are needed across the board. You only get to open a school if there’s demand and the just isn’t at the moment except for SEN provisions.

Batley grammar in Leeds changed from private to state

I’m sure this is what Bradford Girls Grammar did back in the day ..