Modelling a poor marriage - how damaging is it?

[TheCatsAndTatsWhiskers]

We've been married for 19 years and together for longer, and we've drifted apart over the years in that we don't have so much in common nowadays in terms of things we enjoy. DH and I still have very similar values though. However, I think we would naturally split up now if it wasn't for being parents together, as our difference in characters leads to quite regular arguments, plus we don't really enjoy the same activities as each other anymore, and this is becoming more of an issue when we arrange things to do.

For me, much more of an issue than the not having much in common is that there's just no love or affection there anymore. About 6 years ago, he became withdrawn emotionally and physically after we had a bad argument, and then after waiting about 6 months for him to 'thaw out' to no avail, I withdrew affection too. I did this to protect myself emotionally, as I felt so rejected and like it was one-sided if I tried to put my arm round him etc. However, looking back, it was a bad move of me to withdraw affection too, and not communicate on it, as I feel like ever since then we've been stuck in an awkward rut of never showing each other much love (even when we're getting on). We were still having sex (and that was nice as it was the only time that we would have affection), but that has petered out over the last few years to nothing. I've wished we could both just 're-set', and I feel that could have worked, but we haven't even talked about it. I guess he perhaps feels that I've stopped showing affection because I don't like him, rather than it being a self-preservation strategy. Writing this out now makes me realise how ridiculous the whole situation is, especially the lack of communication. I expect people replying will tell me how silly I am to have let it go this far, but please be kind as I'm well aware of how stupid it is to live like this.

On a day-to-day basis, he and I generally get on together and function pretty well in running our home and the family. Like I said, DH and I have very similar values, and we do have really good chats about life and the world. Our shared outlook on life helps in bringing up our child (age 15). Reading what I've just written, it does all sound rather robotic, but believe me there is fun and laughter in our home (between the 3 of us, and from each of us with our DC - just not really directly between DH and me). I think DH and I do our best most of the time to cover up in front of our child about how unhappy we are.

The regular arguments that flare up are usually around me doing what he sees as fussing or wittering on too much - and him being impatient and snappy in return. I hate that this sometimes occurs in front of our DC. For example, DH will snap at me for double checking something. I wish he could be more patient and kind. I don't want our DC to think it's ok to snipe at people like this.

My main question here is - how damaging is all this to our DC? He is quite perceptive, and has made a couple of comments to me a couple of times over recent years that "you and dad don't get on", and worst of all "I don't think dad likes you much". I'm really aware that this is awful, and that his experience of our relationship will affect him. Luckily, he's not an anxious child and is very happy-go-lucky and confident. I'm just really aware that we've not modelled a loving relationship to him, and this will affect his own future relationships.

Of course I've considered whether we should split up. I know DH and I would both hate to lose 50% of our time with our child though. I feel like that would make me more miserable than being in this current situation, and also I know I would really struggle with not overseeing all of DC's needs (I know that makes me sound controlling, but I am the main person when it comes to sorting some extra needs he has regarding his health and education).

I realise that last paragraph is more about the parents needs, and what is more important is the child. However, I do think our DC would lose out by having a split family. We both earn low salaries, so I've no idea how we would manage financially, plus I feel that our son benefits from us both working well together to keep him 'on the straight and narrow', and that he might go off the rails a bit if we were co-parenting separately. I think the difference between DH and me in character (me a bit anxious about checking things and him getting impatient) would actually lead to more arguments if we were co-parenting separately, and then our DC would feel that strain more so than now.

AIBU to carry on for the next 3 years (until DC will be 18 and likely to leave home)? Also, I know this sounds a bit mad, but would I be able to reverse the damage a bit in the future if I am a bit honest with DC (when he's an adult) and explain that it would be much better for him to find a loving affectionate relationship and not see his parents' one as normal. Would that be TMI?! I just want him to know that relationships should be better than this.

Thanks if you've read this far.

I'd say you are teaching your son everything he doesn't need to learn at his age.

I think what you describe is potentially very damaging, and, as as an academic, I’ve had to deal with lots of upset first years who came back after Christmas having had their parents announce they were divorcing — as the kid sees it, having just stuck around long enough to wave them off to university. In your shoes I would investigate couples counselling for a ‘reset’.

At the risk of an MN cliche, have you considered therapy or counselling, either as a couple or just for you? It could help you see a way forward and, if he is prepared to participate, might even bring back some of what you had in the first place.
Edited to add - in terms of your initial question, I would say that, as things are, this is not a good example to DS.

My parents broke up when I was 5 but even at that age I had a lot of memories of how miserable they were together and felt guilty for a long time that my mum stayed as long as she did because of me and my brother. I would always say if the marriage is unhappy you are better apart, in terms of impact on kids

Its hard to know unless we actually witnes the arguments or atmosphere in your house. However I think unless it's hellish you should persevere for a bit longer. People really downplay the effect of a split up on a teen, his world will be torn apart. I think people minimise this to ease their own guilt. Of course if a person is in a truly awful position then they should never feel guilt because they are doing what is the better option in an already shit situation. It sounds to me the better option is not to break up now. I also think you and Dh need do go to counselling. At very least schedule a time and place for a very frank conversation. He should know what way you are thinking. And you should know what he thinks. If you share the same values and co parent well then there is potential there to make this work. Maybe you both really don't want to and that's ok too but you both need to deeply explore what you want what you can do and what would be better for everyone.

If you are both happy and content with this arrangement, I don't see why it would be so bad.

I ended my relationship partly because my 7yr old asked me, "mam,.do you even like dad?"... it was a wake up call. My children were growing up in a house with no affection (between their parents) and they noticed. I didnt want my daughter to think what me and her dad had was a healthy relationship. It was far from it.

I have 4 children aged between 3 - 16 when we separated. Honestly I found the younger ones adapted alot quicker and easier than the older ones. I know why people think waiting until the kids are 18 is a good idea but its really not.

I know this will be hard to hear but bickering and conflict is really not great for kids.
There's a lot of research out there. The following is long, but a very thorough take on the subject.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/509368/what-works-to-enhance-inter-parental-relationships.pdf

If you were going to stick it out, is it still not worth trying to see if there is still any room for repair? Sounds like you have regrets over how you’ve handled some of the situation, is there anything to be lost by sharing that with your husband? Even if it’s just to share the regret? He might have some of his own?

This is an important point. You can't "just" stay together until your DC is 18, then create a massive change just as they're off to Uni. Especially if it means selling the family home. It leaves them without a base.

I wish my parents had split up instead of subjecting me to years of their constant sniping, bitching and sulking at each other. It has massively affected my own relationships and looking back I now see how I have put up with awful behaviour from others my whole life because it felt normal to me to live in a constant low level state of conflict. Don’t underestimate what this is doing to your child.

OP why are you putting all the blame on withdrawing affection on yourself? He withdrew first. You tried for 6 months while getting nothing back. Thats borderline emotional abuse.

My ex was the same. Totally withdrew from family life and the relationship. Its soul destroying being with someone whos so cold/indifferent towards you. It erodes your self esteem. I honestly think most men are cowards. They wont end the relationship but they'll stay and make you miserable until you do. Thats why hes telling you the ball is in your court. He hasn't the backbone to do it himself.

Also, what some of my students found most upsetting was the idea that their parents had grudging and unhappily stayed together ‘for them’, and had been counting down the days till they left for university — it often made them feel terribly guilty, as if their childhoods had been some kind of prison stretch for their parents.

I mean, I’m not for a moment suggesting unhappy couples should just suck it up, I’m just saying that the ‘grin and bear it till offspring is eighteen’ model has its problems too.

I and my siblings are the product of a marriage that is very much like yours OP.

If I am to be honest I am very clear that it has had long term detrimental effects on my life, my relationships, my parenting ......

From the outside people would have concluded that this was a stable happy family as it had all the superficial evidence: holidays, birthday parties, support in education - but underneath it was an example of lovelessness that will never leave me.

Nor will the sense of being manipulated as a go-between. If you manage nothing else OP, do not ever do this to your children.

If your DS is already noticing that his dad doesn't like his mum, then things definitely need to be addressed. Lack of warmth and respect is obviously going to affect him.

You might be able to improve the relationship with couples counselling if your H is on board, but you both have to be willing to work on it.

It might be possible to agree to not be in a relationship anymore and continue to cohabit and parent together. That could get tricky if one of you wants to start dating further down the line, though.

OP, this doesn't sound happy for anyone and I am really sorry you are in this situation. Could you and DH discuss this? I would find living with DH really irritating if it wasn't for being massively in love with him so I can totally get how domestic life is leading to arguments. Affection and love are the glue that enables you to tolerate each other's foibles, surely.

In terms of modelling stuff to DS, I think it is problematic to grow up as a child in an affection free marriage. It can be a blueprint for what kids then unwittingly replicate in their own relationships and I would hate my DC to think 'wittering on' is an acceptable way to describe a conversation with a partner.

It sounds like you and DH have lost respect for each other along the way, and it can't be fun to live like that. As a child of divorce myself, I hated my parents' split but I didn't like the rows either. It wasn't my choice to choose the worst option. You deserve to be happy, OP and so does DH. Can you find a way to make that so?

I was brought up by parents who had the most awful marriage. They rowed, and then wouldn’t speak to each other for a week at a time. There was no affection on display. Ever.

My examples of happy households came exclusively from my many friends. I
envied them all and spent most of my time at their houses.

I wish my parents had divorced and I’d lived with my lovely dad. But there was no question of it. They were Catholics and of a generation where divorce would’ve been a complete disgrace. They were also weirdly devoted to each other.

My siblings and I have not been fucked up by the appalling example our parents set. Conversely, we’re all extremely happily married.

@TheCatsAndTatsWhiskers i’d echo this. I realised my own behaviour was being modelled on my parents marriage during my first marriage. He was a lovely man (like my Dad) but there was no spark, no passion and frankly he was easy to pushover.. I realised he would end up like my Dad hen-pecked and my own (awful) behaviour would never go unchallenged. So I left. I am very happily married to my daughter’s father and my ex is happily married to someone else too.

Your son needs to see a partnership based upon respect, affection and love. It’s a terrible decision that faces you, but if there is no hope of counselling then you need to do the right thing - possibly after GCSE’s are over. The PP poster is correct about splitting just as they go off to uni - my DD’s friends have been terribly scarred when their parents have done the same.

I also grew up listening to my parents constantly arguing, bickering etc. It was absolutely awful. I used to pray they would get divorced so the tension etc would stop. They didn't, and have now been married for 50 years (I'm honestly not sure how!! Apparently they love each other but have a very strange way of showing that!!).
They are completely oblivious to the impact that it had on me (only child). I feel like I have lived my whole life being constantly on edge, avoiding confrontation and doing anything to avoid conflict etc, even at my own detriment.
As I've had my own children I've realised that a lot of what I thought of as "normal" was definitely not, and was actually very different to how my friends grew up.
Please don't underestimate the invisible impact this behaviour is having on your child. It appeared I was independent, confident, able etc but on the inside I was an anxious mess, running on empty from using all my enery trying to keeping it together on the outside.
I'm now very low contact with my parents, I have no desire to spend time in their company and being around them causes me great anxiety.

The real kicker for me here is your son saying that he doesn't think your husband likes you.

I think it's possible for a couple to rub along fine together if they don't have similar interests or have a great deal in common. Plenty of people can live in sexless or virtually sexless marriages (I couldn't but its very common). A less than optimal but stable and respectful marriage is pretty normal and very survivable and can provide children with the calm and stability they need even if the parents are no longer in love.

What isn't survivable is a sense that your parents dislike or distrust each other. Growing up in the knowledge that your parents have contempt for one another is going to leave you with serious issues. If you and your DH can't work through this or mask it (and it sounds like you can't), then you are better off apart. It sounds toxic, and your son is learning that this is what marriage is like.

The problem of course is it doesn't stop when the parents split. Parents bickering can actually get worse and become far more toxic, children used as weapons in divorce, fighting over money, who pays for what, new partners, step siblings getting treated differently, new half siblings, less opportunities due to poorer financial positions and on it goes. It doesn't have to be like that but it often is.
It's a flawed narrative that is perpetuated that any conflict between parents will ruin future relationships for their children. No conflict or bickering is good for children between their parents, but to think parents splitting will end it and suddenly the children will have a great secure life and great future relationships is just not true.
Just to be clear, not talking about abusive relationships here.

I agree with the posters who say it's worth making another attempt to make this work. If you have similar values but poor communication, that's a lot easier to fix than the other way round! I think a good counsellor could really help you.

I also agree with the posters saying it's not so easy just to wait until he's 18 and then leave. I have a 20yo DS at uni and he's really not that different now to when he was 18. Yes he's technically an adult, but he still needs parental support and he would still be affected if me and DH split up.

Thank you so much for everyone who's taken the time to reply. I must admit it's made me cry a bit, getting it all out and seeing how bleak it looks in writing, and then reading replies about how it will have affected my DC so badly.

Yesterday I saw a thread on here about splitting up v staying together for the kids, and a lot of the replies interestingly said that parents can end up even more miserable when separated. So I suppose that fuelled me on to feel that staying together could be better.

A lot of you have highlighted the negative impact of parents splitting up when a kid goes off to uni, so that is food for thought for me to know that it's not as simple as me just counting down the next 3 years.

I totally agree that DH and I need to get counselling, or at least communicate together properly on this.

In terms of the arguments, it's not like the bickering is happening all the time. I mean, all couples have little disagreements, right? Though maybe I'm just trying to justify staying together. 😔

I feel like we do actually model positive parenting in other ways, in that our DC knows that his parents are united together in making sure all his needs are met. We very seldom disagree on parenting decisions, so our family discussions tend to go well when it comes to explaining to our DC why he can or can't do something.

DC also witnesses us getting on, and having good conversations when I feel like our original connection is re-lit.

I'm always careful to be positive to DC about DH. I'm not sure that DH does the same about me though, and this is obviously the issue, as it has probably messed things up further for DC as it shows an unbalanced relationship. But to me, that's better than everything being negative.

I would say to DH, "I would like for us both to work together to improve our marriage. I have researched some couples counsellors and have made a shortlist of these three. Please would you have a look and decide which you think looks best within the next couple of weeks? Then we can hopefully book an initial session sometime in July. I'm happy for you to suggest an alternative therapist if you prefer, I just wanted to do some of the legwork to show you that I am committed to this and not just saying something. I really hope that we can make some positive changes that will benefit both us as a couple and our family as a whole." You could even write in in a letter if you would find it hard to raise it, or if you think he will absorb what you're saying better than way.