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To think 11 year old girls should NOT be eligible for the newly restarted puberty blockers trial?

79 replies

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 19/06/2026 14:16

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/174c8f4252fcd5a5

We know puberty blockers cause permanent harm at any age. 11 is at least 5 years too young. How can the government sanction permanent damage to a child? Hundreds of children, IQ damaged, infertility and sexual function risks, bone density damage, not to mention not addressing that poor child’s underlying mental health issues which should be helped and addressed in the most supportive and humane manner.

I am disgusted Labour can let this horror show go ahead.

Girls aged 11 eligible for restarted puberty blocker trial

Experiment revived despite potential ‘long-term biological harms’

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/174c8f4252fcd5a5

OP posts:
AWeeCupOfTeaAndAnIndividualFruitTrifle · Yesterday 14:31

I'm gender critical but the only way we learn things is through trial and error or research, and it's far better for this to be done in a monitored way. I'm also open-minded, so open to learning more about this and perhaps being wrong.

What do we actually need to learn here, though? Do we need to learn through trial and error what happens if a study group all jump from the top of a 100-storey building? Do we need to learn what happens if a person puts their head in a lion's mouth, so we send a team of volunteers to go and try it out?

AWeeCupOfTeaAndAnIndividualFruitTrifle · Yesterday 14:34

The only people who could possibly ethically consent to this would be adults - and even then one may wish to ensure that they had full mental agency in being driven to request such a thing in the first place - so it would be too late for them anyway.

I'm getting serious Kinsey vibes here - where a person/people with seriously wicked motives seeks to abuse children in the name of 'research'.

ScrollingLeaves · Yesterday 14:49

Sartre · 19/06/2026 14:28

Agreed. Anecdotal but a boy in my DS’s year wanted to be a girl right throughout secondary, insisted on being called a girl’s name and everyone using she/her pronouns. Now at the end of year 11 he’s reverted back and decided he is in fact a boy. Imagine if he’d been given these.

And this is the norm.

ScrollingLeaves · Yesterday 14:54

MissingLynks · 19/06/2026 18:53

Your opening post contains misinformation. We don't "know" that puberty blockers cause long term harm, even Cass couldn't find conclusive evidence that they do - the only concrete evidence of harm in humans that she found was around potential reduced bone density, however the same piece of research showed bone density recovers entirely once blockers are stopped and that there are ways to mitigate harm using supplements. The same drugs have a long history of being used in both children and adults to treat other conditions; there is no reason they'd be safe for these patients but dangerous for others. Even Cass acknowledged there is an argument for their use ; her concern was about identifying which patients were most likely to benefit, she never recommended an outright ban.

From your posting history it's clear you are ideologically opposed to the existence of trans people and don't believe people should be allowed to transition. Medical decisions should not be made by politicians or by anti-trans activists. Bluntly, this is the business of the participating patients, families and their clinicians, not yours.

Edited

Medical decisions should not be made by politicians or by anti-trans activists

They certainly should not be made by Transactivists including the medical ones.

trans people?

Children you mean.

EasternStandard · Yesterday 14:58

ScrollingLeaves · Yesterday 14:54

Medical decisions should not be made by politicians or by anti-trans activists

They certainly should not be made by Transactivists including the medical ones.

trans people?

Children you mean.

Agree. How can a child fit the idea of trans. It’s due to ideology it’s even contemplated.

owlpassport · Yesterday 15:24

AWeeCupOfTeaAndAnIndividualFruitTrifle · Yesterday 14:31

I'm gender critical but the only way we learn things is through trial and error or research, and it's far better for this to be done in a monitored way. I'm also open-minded, so open to learning more about this and perhaps being wrong.

What do we actually need to learn here, though? Do we need to learn through trial and error what happens if a study group all jump from the top of a 100-storey building? Do we need to learn what happens if a person puts their head in a lion's mouth, so we send a team of volunteers to go and try it out?

The... Physical, mental and emotional risks versus benefits of puberty blocking treatment. Your examples aren't comparable and you know that. Medicine isn't clear cut, and the risk benefit balance may be overall a benefit for SOME people.

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · Yesterday 16:32

owlpassport · Yesterday 14:09

Literally all of those arguments or questions are answered in the trial protocol. Have you read it? Or even just the study synopsis? It is publicly available on the link I posted previously and will describe the aim, possible benefit, consent process, risk balance etc.

There is a legal distinction between consent and assent, so it very literally does change that. You can't just make statements and say they're fact, that isn't how facts work.

The drug(s) are used in practice for various indications. This isn't a study to primarily investigate what the drug does (although it is part of the secondary outcome), it is a study to investigate the risks and benefits of a therapy that has been and is used, and that many people want to be able to access.

One of the inclusion criteria is literally that the child/young person has participated in other forms of care for their holistic health. Another is that they must have a diagnosis of gender incongruence. They also must be thoroughly counselled on the risks, multiple times.

And finally, all research that reaches participants is ethically approved. An ethics panel will have reviewed this in great detail and have agreed it can proceed. Why would your opinion (based on, as I assume, not even reading the protocol) trump that formal process?

Edited

I have read the protocol. That does not make the objection disappear.

”The protocol answers this.”

No, it describes the mechanism of the trial. It does not answer the central ethical problem: what positive outcome is actually possible here?

If a child has gender incongruence, the genuinely good outcome is that the child is no longer distressed by the reality of their sexed body. Puberty blockers cannot achieve that. Cross-sex hormones cannot achieve that. Surgery cannot achieve that. None of those things make a child the opposite sex. They only medicalise the child’s healthy body around a false premise.

”There is a distinction between consent and assent.”

Yes, legally there is. But that is not the same as saying this is ethically sound.

An 11-year-old cannot meaningfully understand the lifelong implications of interrupting puberty: fertility, sexual function, bone health, brain development, future regret, and dependence on further treatment. Calling that “assent” does not make it informed in any meaningful adult sense.

And parental consent has limits too. Parents cannot ethically consent to every possible intervention just because a child is distressed. The question is whether the intervention has a coherent therapeutic purpose and an acceptable risk-benefit balance. I do not think this does.

”This is not primarily to investigate what the drug does.”

That is not reassuring. The concern is not merely the drug in isolation. The concern is the pathway.
The trial itself is about suppressing normal puberty in children with gender incongruence. The endpoint is not “child reconciled to their body”. The wider pathway can include continued blockers or cross-sex hormones. That is exactly the issue.

”The child has had holistic care first.”

That does not solve the problem. It actually underlines it.

If a child is distressed, autistic, anxious, traumatised, bullied, struggling with sexuality, struggling with puberty, or struggling with body image, the answer should be careful whole-child psychological support. Not drugs to stop normal sexual development.
“Holistic care first” is not a moral permission slip to then medically interrupt puberty.

“They must have a diagnosis of gender incongruence.”

That is not a safeguard. That is the contested assumption.

A diagnosis saying a child strongly wants to be the other sex does not prove that affirming that belief medically is good care. A child can have real distress and still be wrong about the solution. Adults are supposed to protect children from irreversible or high-risk responses to distress, not build a medical pathway around them.

”They are counselled on the risks multiple times.”

Counselling a child about risks does not mean the child can grasp them.

An 11-year-old cannot properly weigh the possibility of future infertility or impaired sexual function against immediate distress about puberty. They have no adult frame of reference for what they are being asked to gamble with.

”It has ethics approval.”

Ethics approval is not a trump card. Many things have been approved by formal processes and later judged to be harmful, wrong or based on poor assumptions.

The real question is still: what is the positive therapeutic aim?

If the aim is “pause puberty”, that is not a health outcome. If the aim is “reduce distress”, there are safer ways to address distress. If the aim is “help transition”, then this is not neutral research, it is the first step on a medicalised pathway.

I do not accept that children should be used to test whether stopping normal puberty might make them feel better about an identity conflict. The best outcome is not a child becoming a lifelong medical patient. The best outcome is a child being helped, carefully and compassionately, to live peacefully in their own body.

OP posts:
SingleSexSpacesInSchools · Yesterday 16:39

MissingLynks · 19/06/2026 18:53

Your opening post contains misinformation. We don't "know" that puberty blockers cause long term harm, even Cass couldn't find conclusive evidence that they do - the only concrete evidence of harm in humans that she found was around potential reduced bone density, however the same piece of research showed bone density recovers entirely once blockers are stopped and that there are ways to mitigate harm using supplements. The same drugs have a long history of being used in both children and adults to treat other conditions; there is no reason they'd be safe for these patients but dangerous for others. Even Cass acknowledged there is an argument for their use ; her concern was about identifying which patients were most likely to benefit, she never recommended an outright ban.

From your posting history it's clear you are ideologically opposed to the existence of trans people and don't believe people should be allowed to transition. Medical decisions should not be made by politicians or by anti-trans activists. Bluntly, this is the business of the participating patients, families and their clinicians, not yours.

Edited

There are several things wrong with this.

“We don’t know they cause long-term harm.”

That is not true in any meaningful sense.

We know puberty blockers can cause harm. Even in their accepted use for central precocious puberty, there are recognised adverse effects and warnings. The FDA has added warnings for GnRH agonists, including risks such as pseudotumor cerebri, also called idiopathic intracranial hypertension. Lupron Depot-Ped’s own safety information refers to psychiatric events and seizures. So the idea that these are harmless “pause buttons” is simply false. (U.S. Food and Drug Administration)

There have also been legal actions, investigations and reported complaints around Lupron and alleged long-term harms in children, including women who were treated for early puberty and later reported serious health problems. That does not by itself prove every allegation, but it absolutely destroys the breezy claim that there is no long-term harm issue here. (STAT)

”The only concrete harm is bone density, and it recovers.”

No. That is far too simplistic.

Bone density is a serious issue in children because puberty is when a huge amount of adult bone strength is built. Even if some recovery happens after stopping, that claim depends on the child actually stopping blockers and going through normal puberty. In the gender pathway, many do not simply stop. They move on to cross-sex hormones. That is a totally different risk profile.

And bone density is not the only concern. Cass raised uncertainty around neurocognitive development, psychosexual development and other physical and mental-health outcomes. NHS England stopped routine commissioning because there was not enough evidence of safety or clinical effectiveness. (NHS England)

“They are used safely for precocious puberty.”

Central precocious puberty is a real, objective, verifiable medical condition. It means puberty has started abnormally early, classically before age 8 in girls and before age 9 in boys. In that situation, the child’s development is already medically abnormal, and the treatment aim is to restore puberty to more normal timing. (dfs.ny.gov)

That is completely different from giving the same drugs to an 11-year-old whose puberty is normal but who is distressed by it.

One is treating an abnormal early puberty. The other is stopping healthy puberty because of a psychological identity conflict. Those are not remotely the same ethical or medical situation.

”There is no reason they would be safe for one group but dangerous for another.”

Of course there is.

The risk-benefit calculation depends on the condition being treated, the aim of treatment, duration, age, baseline health, and what comes next.

A drug can be justified for a real endocrine disorder and unjustified for a child whose body is developing normally. Chemotherapy is justified for cancer. That does not make it acceptable for a healthy child who is distressed by their body.

”Cass did not recommend an outright ban.”

Cass did not give puberty blockers a clean bill of health. Quite the opposite.

The whole point of the Cass Review was that the evidence base was weak, the “time to think” claim was not properly supported, and the risks and benefits were not established. NHS England then stopped routine prescribing for gender incongruence/gender dysphoria in children. (NHS England)

That is not a minor caveat. It is a huge red flag.

”This is just between families and doctors.”

No. These are children.

When an intervention affects puberty, fertility, sexual development, bone development, brain development and future adult sexual function, it is absolutely a matter of safeguarding and public concern.

Parents and doctors do not have unlimited authority to medicalise a child’s healthy body, especially when the evidence of benefit is weak and the possible harms are profound.

”This is anti-trans.”

No. This is pro-child.

Adults can make adult decisions. Children cannot meaningfully consent to losing normal puberty, future fertility, normal sexual function or a non-medicalised adult life.

The real issue is still this: what is the positive outcome?

If the good outcome is the child no longer having gender incongruence, then blockers do not do that. Cross-sex hormones do not do that. Surgery does not do that. None of it changes sex.

The best outcome is a child being helped to live peacefully in their own body. That requires careful, whole-child psychological support, not drugs that stop normal puberty and place them on a pathway to lifelong medicalisation.

NHS England » Clinical policy: puberty suppressing hormones

NHS England » Clinical policy: puberty suppressing hormones

https://www.england.nhs.uk/publication/clinical-policy-puberty-suppressing-hormones/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

OP posts:
EasternStandard · Yesterday 16:40

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · Yesterday 16:32

I have read the protocol. That does not make the objection disappear.

”The protocol answers this.”

No, it describes the mechanism of the trial. It does not answer the central ethical problem: what positive outcome is actually possible here?

If a child has gender incongruence, the genuinely good outcome is that the child is no longer distressed by the reality of their sexed body. Puberty blockers cannot achieve that. Cross-sex hormones cannot achieve that. Surgery cannot achieve that. None of those things make a child the opposite sex. They only medicalise the child’s healthy body around a false premise.

”There is a distinction between consent and assent.”

Yes, legally there is. But that is not the same as saying this is ethically sound.

An 11-year-old cannot meaningfully understand the lifelong implications of interrupting puberty: fertility, sexual function, bone health, brain development, future regret, and dependence on further treatment. Calling that “assent” does not make it informed in any meaningful adult sense.

And parental consent has limits too. Parents cannot ethically consent to every possible intervention just because a child is distressed. The question is whether the intervention has a coherent therapeutic purpose and an acceptable risk-benefit balance. I do not think this does.

”This is not primarily to investigate what the drug does.”

That is not reassuring. The concern is not merely the drug in isolation. The concern is the pathway.
The trial itself is about suppressing normal puberty in children with gender incongruence. The endpoint is not “child reconciled to their body”. The wider pathway can include continued blockers or cross-sex hormones. That is exactly the issue.

”The child has had holistic care first.”

That does not solve the problem. It actually underlines it.

If a child is distressed, autistic, anxious, traumatised, bullied, struggling with sexuality, struggling with puberty, or struggling with body image, the answer should be careful whole-child psychological support. Not drugs to stop normal sexual development.
“Holistic care first” is not a moral permission slip to then medically interrupt puberty.

“They must have a diagnosis of gender incongruence.”

That is not a safeguard. That is the contested assumption.

A diagnosis saying a child strongly wants to be the other sex does not prove that affirming that belief medically is good care. A child can have real distress and still be wrong about the solution. Adults are supposed to protect children from irreversible or high-risk responses to distress, not build a medical pathway around them.

”They are counselled on the risks multiple times.”

Counselling a child about risks does not mean the child can grasp them.

An 11-year-old cannot properly weigh the possibility of future infertility or impaired sexual function against immediate distress about puberty. They have no adult frame of reference for what they are being asked to gamble with.

”It has ethics approval.”

Ethics approval is not a trump card. Many things have been approved by formal processes and later judged to be harmful, wrong or based on poor assumptions.

The real question is still: what is the positive therapeutic aim?

If the aim is “pause puberty”, that is not a health outcome. If the aim is “reduce distress”, there are safer ways to address distress. If the aim is “help transition”, then this is not neutral research, it is the first step on a medicalised pathway.

I do not accept that children should be used to test whether stopping normal puberty might make them feel better about an identity conflict. The best outcome is not a child becoming a lifelong medical patient. The best outcome is a child being helped, carefully and compassionately, to live peacefully in their own body.

Yes I agree adults are supposed to protect children. Not use an ideology to underpin medical trials.

I hope one day people will be accountable for all this.

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · Yesterday 16:43

owlpassport · Yesterday 14:17

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37902760/ although refers to people who then go on MAF hormones

That paper does not prove what you seem to think it proves.

It is not a general safety study of puberty blockers. It is a bone-density follow-up study of a selected group of people who had blockers and then stayed on cross-sex hormones for at least 9 years.

That matters.

Of 143 eligible people, only 75 were included. Others could not be reached, did not consent, or had discontinued cross-sex hormones. So this is not a clean picture of “what happens to children given blockers”. It is a follow-up of the people who remained on the medical pathway and were available and willing to be studied.

It also mainly involved adolescents who had already gone a fair way through puberty. In the paper, most were already at later Tanner stages, and most of the females had already had menarche. So it tells us very little about starting blockers at 11, near the beginning of puberty, before normal adolescent development has properly happened.

And even then the result is not “everything recovered”. In males taking oestrogen, lumbar spine bone-density scores did not catch up with pretreatment levels. The authors themselves say bone health in that group needs extra attention and further study.

More importantly, the paper only looks at bone density. It does not answer fertility, sexual function, orgasmic capacity, brain development, psychological outcomes, regret, adult quality of life, or whether blockers actually help gender distress.

So no, this paper does not show puberty blockers are safe. At most, it says that in one selected Dutch cohort, some bone-density measures partly recovered after years of cross-sex hormones, while other measures did not.

That is a very long way from “safe to give to 11-year-olds”.

OP posts:
GirlsInGreen · Yesterday 16:57

I know James Esses is a bringing a JR, and as much as I hooe for success I realky can't see it.

I think its an awful decision but I don't this this gov rowing back. I was never convinced by Cass & always thought her report was weak where it needed to be strong.
The idea of the trans child is out of the bag now, this has a long way to run & I think we will always have children & parents seeking a medical solution.
We've seen & heard so much damage from people who've undergone such interventions, I'm not sure what else can be done to convince decision makers its not a good thing.
I suppose, with grim resignation, the best I can think is at least it might keep kids out of the hands of the likes of Webberly & more oversight than was seen at the Brighton Clinic.

GirlsInGreen · Yesterday 16:59

*pls excuse typo, trying to give a cat his medicine

Sunnydaysforevernow · Yesterday 17:14

My boy who’s 13 is in the midst of puberty changes. He’s growing hair, his sexual organs are growing, he’s shying away from being seen naked by his parents/brother, and is very very uncomfortable discussing all this. Why can’t he access puberty blockers for a few years so that he has ‘time to think’ and decide what he wants to do with his body? Why are these pb not offered to any girl who does not want, at 12-13-14, to get into the mess of first periods, enlarged breasts etc? Why are only the boys who feel like they want to use make up allowed access to them? (I know the answer…)

Seethlaw · Yesterday 17:23

I do not accept that children should be used to test whether stopping normal puberty might make them feel better about an identity conflict. The best outcome is not a child becoming a lifelong medical patient. The best outcome is a child being helped, carefully and compassionately, to live peacefully in their own body.

Absolutely. Those are incredible posts, @SingleSexSpacesInSchools !!

endofthelinefinally · Yesterday 18:03

owlpassport · Yesterday 14:19

Because people who were on them didn't consent to have their medical data recorded and published..? That is literally what a trial is for, and therefore why this research is being done. There may be some post-marketing data for the medications but that would be muddied by the fact they are used for things like prostate cancer and endometriosis.

That isn't how clinical audits are done.
All medical treatments should have documented, accurate records for legal and safety reasons. There should be written protocols for diagnosis treatments and procedures.
Medical records are legal documents and should not be altered or deleted. Have you ever tried to get anything removed from your gp record? All they can do is add a note stating the error.
Clinical audits are patient safety requirements throughout the nhs. Data are anonymised.
Maintaining clinical records does not require consent.
Giving treatment does require informed consent and proof of that should be recorded.
Treating patients without maintaining records is malpractice.
I spent years running clinical trials, designing and carrying out clinical audits. Mainly regarding drug safety.

JoyousOpalLemur · Yesterday 18:06

This is state sanctioned child abuse.

I very much hope everyone involved in this will be prosecuted one day.

They know exactly what they're doing.

owlpassport · Yesterday 22:08

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · Yesterday 16:43

That paper does not prove what you seem to think it proves.

It is not a general safety study of puberty blockers. It is a bone-density follow-up study of a selected group of people who had blockers and then stayed on cross-sex hormones for at least 9 years.

That matters.

Of 143 eligible people, only 75 were included. Others could not be reached, did not consent, or had discontinued cross-sex hormones. So this is not a clean picture of “what happens to children given blockers”. It is a follow-up of the people who remained on the medical pathway and were available and willing to be studied.

It also mainly involved adolescents who had already gone a fair way through puberty. In the paper, most were already at later Tanner stages, and most of the females had already had menarche. So it tells us very little about starting blockers at 11, near the beginning of puberty, before normal adolescent development has properly happened.

And even then the result is not “everything recovered”. In males taking oestrogen, lumbar spine bone-density scores did not catch up with pretreatment levels. The authors themselves say bone health in that group needs extra attention and further study.

More importantly, the paper only looks at bone density. It does not answer fertility, sexual function, orgasmic capacity, brain development, psychological outcomes, regret, adult quality of life, or whether blockers actually help gender distress.

So no, this paper does not show puberty blockers are safe. At most, it says that in one selected Dutch cohort, some bone-density measures partly recovered after years of cross-sex hormones, while other measures did not.

That is a very long way from “safe to give to 11-year-olds”.

PP who I was replying to specifically asked for the trials on bone density.

owlpassport · Yesterday 22:10

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · Yesterday 16:32

I have read the protocol. That does not make the objection disappear.

”The protocol answers this.”

No, it describes the mechanism of the trial. It does not answer the central ethical problem: what positive outcome is actually possible here?

If a child has gender incongruence, the genuinely good outcome is that the child is no longer distressed by the reality of their sexed body. Puberty blockers cannot achieve that. Cross-sex hormones cannot achieve that. Surgery cannot achieve that. None of those things make a child the opposite sex. They only medicalise the child’s healthy body around a false premise.

”There is a distinction between consent and assent.”

Yes, legally there is. But that is not the same as saying this is ethically sound.

An 11-year-old cannot meaningfully understand the lifelong implications of interrupting puberty: fertility, sexual function, bone health, brain development, future regret, and dependence on further treatment. Calling that “assent” does not make it informed in any meaningful adult sense.

And parental consent has limits too. Parents cannot ethically consent to every possible intervention just because a child is distressed. The question is whether the intervention has a coherent therapeutic purpose and an acceptable risk-benefit balance. I do not think this does.

”This is not primarily to investigate what the drug does.”

That is not reassuring. The concern is not merely the drug in isolation. The concern is the pathway.
The trial itself is about suppressing normal puberty in children with gender incongruence. The endpoint is not “child reconciled to their body”. The wider pathway can include continued blockers or cross-sex hormones. That is exactly the issue.

”The child has had holistic care first.”

That does not solve the problem. It actually underlines it.

If a child is distressed, autistic, anxious, traumatised, bullied, struggling with sexuality, struggling with puberty, or struggling with body image, the answer should be careful whole-child psychological support. Not drugs to stop normal sexual development.
“Holistic care first” is not a moral permission slip to then medically interrupt puberty.

“They must have a diagnosis of gender incongruence.”

That is not a safeguard. That is the contested assumption.

A diagnosis saying a child strongly wants to be the other sex does not prove that affirming that belief medically is good care. A child can have real distress and still be wrong about the solution. Adults are supposed to protect children from irreversible or high-risk responses to distress, not build a medical pathway around them.

”They are counselled on the risks multiple times.”

Counselling a child about risks does not mean the child can grasp them.

An 11-year-old cannot properly weigh the possibility of future infertility or impaired sexual function against immediate distress about puberty. They have no adult frame of reference for what they are being asked to gamble with.

”It has ethics approval.”

Ethics approval is not a trump card. Many things have been approved by formal processes and later judged to be harmful, wrong or based on poor assumptions.

The real question is still: what is the positive therapeutic aim?

If the aim is “pause puberty”, that is not a health outcome. If the aim is “reduce distress”, there are safer ways to address distress. If the aim is “help transition”, then this is not neutral research, it is the first step on a medicalised pathway.

I do not accept that children should be used to test whether stopping normal puberty might make them feel better about an identity conflict. The best outcome is not a child becoming a lifelong medical patient. The best outcome is a child being helped, carefully and compassionately, to live peacefully in their own body.

You clearly have an anti-trans ideology, so nothing I say will convince you. While I personally agree with most things you are saying, the fact is we need an evidence base. The trial results may demonstrate the points you believe. Surely this would be a good thing?

owlpassport · Yesterday 22:14

endofthelinefinally · Yesterday 18:03

That isn't how clinical audits are done.
All medical treatments should have documented, accurate records for legal and safety reasons. There should be written protocols for diagnosis treatments and procedures.
Medical records are legal documents and should not be altered or deleted. Have you ever tried to get anything removed from your gp record? All they can do is add a note stating the error.
Clinical audits are patient safety requirements throughout the nhs. Data are anonymised.
Maintaining clinical records does not require consent.
Giving treatment does require informed consent and proof of that should be recorded.
Treating patients without maintaining records is malpractice.
I spent years running clinical trials, designing and carrying out clinical audits. Mainly regarding drug safety.

What are you talking about? Audit and research are very different. The post I replied to asked why there was no long term follow-up data if the treatments were such a success. The fact is that even if the treatments were a success the lack of standardised questionnaires etc means it would be near impossible to demonstrate.

OP posts:
endofthelinefinally · Yesterday 22:21

owlpassport · Yesterday 22:14

What are you talking about? Audit and research are very different. The post I replied to asked why there was no long term follow-up data if the treatments were such a success. The fact is that even if the treatments were a success the lack of standardised questionnaires etc means it would be near impossible to demonstrate.

I am saying if that if years of records had been kept correctly there would be a whole body of data already in existence. We wouldn 't be in the position of even thinking about doing a dangerous experiment on vulnerable children.
The limited records we do have show the pre-existing comorbidities in the children referred to the tavistock. Proper follow up records would have been extremely informative.IMO that is why they were not kept. Which is shocking.

endofthelinefinally · Yesterday 22:36

There is no official recording of detransitioners. We know there are many.

Willowspaw · Yesterday 22:59

We need to go back to beginning and ask what are we actually trying to treat?
Gender incongruence?
what is gender?
nobody seems to be able to answer that simple question without resorting to stereotypes.

We’re stunting and damaging children’s bodies on the back of this nebulous concept of gender, then the reality is, no matter how young you block puberty, which sounds like a terrible thing to do to someone, no matter how much cross sex hormones and surgery,
no human can ever change sex, so what problem are we trying to solve exactly?
The whole concept is doomed to failure, we don’t need to hurt more children to know that.

Seethlaw · Yesterday 23:02

owlpassport · Yesterday 22:10

You clearly have an anti-trans ideology, so nothing I say will convince you. While I personally agree with most things you are saying, the fact is we need an evidence base. The trial results may demonstrate the points you believe. Surely this would be a good thing?

How would it be a good thing to have damaged kids for life for unsatisfying results?