To wonder about the CECOT prison compared to British and other justice systems

[MontyDonsBlueSuit]

There’s a programme with Richard Madeley tonight about the famously strict prison in El Salvador, it’s Ch5 so will probably be a bit sensationalist but I’m quite interested to watch. These are clearly very evil people but the way they’re kept seems inhuman and if any of them are ever released they will possibly be more of a danger than when they went in.

But I do think it’s worth considering if we can learn anything from it - not that there seems to be the money to make any changes. Someone I know was recently imprisoned but it’s made very little difference to them and the stories about drugs and smuggled phones are not just tabloid headlines.

Not everyone in prison is evil, many are not truly 'bad'. There's a distinction between someone being innately bad, or having done a bad thing. The problem with the British system is that people can go in for one thing and come out with a whole host of other problems, such as drug addiction, even if they weren't addicts to begin with. It's incredibly hard to break the cycle, because they just get sucked in. The series Time is a brilliantly accurate depiction of British prisons.

British prisons are desperately crying out for prison officers with proper life experience, those who can be both assertive and empathetic. They're in short supply, but those are the ones that make a difference to whether a person can be rehabilitated or not. I'm a firm believer that a 19yo fresh out of school cannot possibly have the necessary life skills and experience to deal with everything from drug smuggling to self harm, neurodivergence and dirty protests. It takes a special kind of person.

I thought Time was absolutely brilliant and it very much reflected the experience of the person I know who, as you say isn't 'bad' per se, but has made poor decisions. They learnt nothing from their short time inside and have received no support since their release.

So is anyone else planning to watch? It's tonight at 9pm I think.

I watched it.

I kept swinging between it being just a place to store people and then remembering the things they had done.

I was annoyed that Madeley didn't ask some questions that would have been obvious to me. eg what happens when they age and can't climb a ladder to bed?

Is this a once in a generation thing?

@Whatafustercluck the guy that cleans my oven every 6 months or so was a prison officer, he stopped when they decided to privatise prisons, he reasoned that no one should profit from crime, and I get that.

Also private prisons have no incentive for rehabilitation, they get paid for housing prisoners, they are quite happy to see people come back again and again.

The prison in El Salvador is a desperate response to a desperate situation. We should be learning from our own experiences and from those regimes that do successfully rehabilitate.

I believe our whole prison system needs a radical over haul, it simply does not work, our prisons are full of people with mental health issues, lack education, have addiction issues and are in and out on a regular basis, often for stupid, petty crimes. It seems to be a way of life for many and its costing us stupid amounts of money.

I think the cecot prison is truly chilling, I totally get that they are very evil men but the lack of humanity troubled me. To suffer a living death like this is not something decent humans should wish to impose on others. I'm aware I would probably feel different if my family had been damaged by their action and I'm no saint but surely dishing out this inhuman treatment does not lift us above the gang members and their horrific crimes.

I agree it was staggering to watch, but thinking of the two girls who were raped in Hampshire recently it was good to see the victims\innocent public being prioritised over the offenders !!

I found it harrowing to watch. They were all dead behind the eyes. How did they keep them so docile? I think we didn’t get the whole story. Either they were drugged or the punishment for not conforming was much, much worse than they were telling us. I think they were in hell.
Maybe they deserve it? I don’t know . Extremely hard watch.

To be fair, as horrendous as that is, I wouldn’t want the whole prison service to be reformed to make it more intolerable because of a few cases. The system is set up to fix that issue before they get to prison and whilst we don’t have an outcome yet, that system is working. I don’t want those boys to be let off with what they have done in any way, but moreso, I don’t want them ever to do it again and from the statistics of recidivism in our prison service (and in El Salvador) neither system seems set up to prevent that.

I favour the Scandinavian model which focuses entirely on rehabilitation. But this leads to situations where people like Anders Breivik was sentenced to 21 years, the maximum sentence, for killing 77 people, and is living in relative comfort compared to even a British prison. The focus is on his rehabilitation but for our general public that wouldn’t be acceptable, even though his sentence will be extended if he is still deemed to be a risk. I do get that is difficult to stomach, but when you look at the re-offending rates which have led to a dramatic drop in the prison population, it is clear that a system like this saves money and makes people safer in the longer term.

I thought it was fascinating, although absolutely extreme. I found it interesting that they manage to keep the prison drug and phone free. We definitely need to sort these issues here in the UK. I have never understood why we are so slsck at what we let into our jails here and the destruction it causes.

I thought it was so interesting how the prisoners were so subservient and compliant. You'd think as they are all in for life some might push back as they have nothing to lose.. to.me, they looked slightly zombified. I wonder if the stories of torture and violence are true?

I agree Ali.

I found it equally as fascinating as I did confusing. As in I still don’t really know in my own mind what I think of it.

I did wonder if they’ve ever actually used those guns. Especially when he was discussing the rubber bullets. I wonder if they’ve fired them off when violence has broken out in the past?

I also wonder if the calmness stems from the fact the emptiness are now just resigned to their fate?

They know they aren’t coming out. They know they are dying there and so they are just waiting for that and possibly hoping it’ll be sooner rather than later?

And part of me thinks they probably aren’t scared of death when you consider the life they led?

i think it was a necessary means to the end they wanted to achieve.

I think UK prisons could learn from it but o would t want to see it emulated in totality. I believe in rehabilitation for most.

O also agree privatisation of our prisons isn’t probably to blame for a good proportion of the problems. It’s not worked out for most previously government owned institutions or utilities.

Dh is a prison officer at a Sodexo prison. He's on the women's wing, there are huge issues with mental health and he believes that prison really isn't the right place for many of them. He goes in with the attitude that he doesn't want to know what they're in there for, they're human beings, and if he can make a difference to their outcomes then he will, otherwise what is the point of prison? The vast majority appreciate his fair approach and give him no trouble (I suspect this wouldn't be the case on the men's wing though). He loves his job. I think prisons have really suffered with their recruitment of decent officers, but that money is now being put into trying to ensure they recruit and train the right ones. It's kind of how the police used to struggle (and still do to an extent) because it's seen as a macho environment in which you have to be authoritarian in order to achieve success. But the reality is that policing also relies heavily on community officers with people skills who can diffuse a situation rather than escalate it. Dh was the oldest on his course (mid 50s) and worried he may not physically be up to it like the younger ones. But he's much more adept at de-escalation and has earned respect because he genuinely wants to help them turn their lives around. Unfortunately some are too far gone to help, but many are not.

I watched the Cecot documentary and I'm not really sure what I thought about it, other than you cannot compare a country in the throes of post civil war gang violence with the UK. The societal makeup is totally different and you can't really deny that the tactics used in El Salvador have returned its citizens to resting easy in their beds at night. It was shocking to see the men in the cages packed in like battery hens, and the 24/7 lighting feels like torture in its own right. There was definitely some combination of sedation and abject fear going on to keep them so docile and compliant. At one point I said to dh that while I don't believe in capital punishment, what is the point in keeping all those men in such a state with absolutely no hope of release (sentenced to 777 years!) and living such a bleak existence. They'd all be better off dead. But then dh reminded me that there are victims of their crimes who will want to see them serve out their lives behind bars to have them punished - death would be the easy way out.