Israel / Palestine: are you a woman that has changed your views in the last two years?

[catspyjamas1]

I was hardcore left for 20+ years. That meant Israel and the IDF were the devil. Signed and paid for Labour voter, Jeremy Corbyn voter, social studies courses etc. Since October 7th, I’ve had a revelation. As have many women just like me.

YANBU: I’m also discovering that all the things I believed in Left feminism isn’t reality.
YABU: I’m a Leftist woman and haven’t changed my view.

Please link any other threads on this I can read – thanks!

I don't see any link between Israel and feminism. It's like asking if I changed my mind about Israel because I had pasta for lunch.

@catspyjamas1 i'd be interested to hear more

Have you realised that people on the right actually aren't evil?!

Who uses leftist that has ever been on the left/centre?

This is hopelessly garbled, OP. Explain exactly what your Road to Damascus moment involved.

LOL, no one is evil. I don't believe in the concept of good vs evil. But the left does, which I was a part of.

I believe that complex geopolitical situations cannot be reduced to ‘good vs evil’ and that it is perfectly ok not to have an opinion on it at all.
Of course I will get flamed for saying this.
But see - other geopolitical wars that nobody gives a stuff about.

My Road to Damascus moment?! 😂

What part of my garbled post don't you understand? I'm happy to clarify and edit so do let me know.

What do you think now?

Shocker - see the local elections two weeks ago 🙄

I’ve not changed my mind.

I was against rape, murder and random violence before 7 October and I still feel the same today.

No ifs, no buts.

It’s not clear what you used to believe, other than some handwaving about ‘evil’. It’s not clear what you believe now, or what feminism has to do with it.

I’m not sure I follow your train of thought, or any of them!

And I do think some people are evil - Putin, Trump, Netanyahu are all evil in my view and many others like them.

There aren’t whole sections of the population who are entirely evil though, I agree.

I have and haven’t moved re Israel / Palestine. I’ve always believed both states have a right to exist, and felt sympathy for both populations, and had very little time for the current and recent Israeli governments or Hamas and their like. I’ve probably moved towards “the Israeli govt should be wholeheartedly condemned/ this is genocide” from a more “well it’s complicated” position over the past few years. Although of course none of that excuses 7/10 retrospectively, and that should also be condemned.

I think your stance is bizarre. You don’t need to be left thinking, or think Israel is inherently “evil” to think what is happening in Gaza and the West Bank is wrong.

People also think what happened on 7/10 was wrong and still think what is happening in Gaza and the West Bank is wrong.

I don’t really understand your post. What do you think now?

This is where I am at and you summed it up perfectly.

PS I’m also not sure what any of it has to do with left v right or feminism!

Neither of those things seem to have anything to do with Israel / Palestine, even if a lot of people’s views on it seem to line up with supposedly left or right views.

No my views haven’t changed.

Those views being that the deaths of Palestinian women and children are utterly devastating and horrific and each Palestinian’s life is of equal value to a life anywhere else.

I also believe that for true and lasting peace, the Palestinians will need a mindset shift to compromise and to end their armed resistance. The notion of martyrdom and eternal war is killing their own people. What happened in the 1950s and 60s is not justifiable but there is no Time Machine and, like so many others in that era, they will simply have to find a way of adjusting to the ‘new’ situation they find themselves in rather than waging attacks trying to bring back their circumstances from 60 years ago.

What are your thoughts on the genocide? The slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent people?

Hi, "leftie" here.

I think Hamas are an abhorrent organisation that have committed utter atrocities and it's right that the Israeli government should take action against them.

I also think Israel have committed genocide in Gaza, that the Jewish settlers in the West Bank should be named as "invaders" or "terrorists" and that Israel should get out of Lebanon.

Because, life isn't black and white and anyone who tells you otherwise should be ignored.

I haven’t voted because your options don’t make sense. I’m a lifelong left wing Labour voting feminist. I’m also not and nor have I ever been antisemitic. If people can’t see why Jews absolutely need Israel then they’re being blinded by their own antisemitic prejudices.

It's very much of the Left which in UK feminism is very much to the Left.

There is no genocide. A lot of deaths yes (thanks to Hamas tactics) but statistically far fewer than any other conflict in such a densely populated area.
The IDF have done an incredible job keeping civilian deaths to a bare minimum.

A war started by Hamas, and cheered on by the Palestinians. A war lost.

My views have definitely changed. I was generally in the 'no opinion'/'I wish everybody could just get on' camp before. When Oct 7th happened I felt horrified and that Israel's response was wholly justified. As time has gone on I have become more aware and critical of the Israeli hardcore settler types - I hadn't realised the extent to which Israeli politics has moved right. At the same time I have become more aware that a huge amount of criticism of Israel is the new dressing for the old anti-semitism. The discounting of violence against women, the feverish 'anti-zionism', the focus on all the negatives of Israeli society and none of the positives, the single-minded loathing of Israel, while other British allies (Saudi, China) are largely ignored. I think a lot of the anti-Israel lot are not necessarily consciously aware of it, but the lack of proportion and irrationality of the hatred make it clear that something more is going on.

I think people should stop killing other people and pretending it's OK because of religion, when mostly it isn't about religion at all.

So you do believe that people on the left generally see those of us on the right as being evil?

Apologies for not focusing on your feminism point. It's just I recently made a friend, hopefully, and I have to keep my political opinions very firmly to myself. I think she's changing, but when I met her a couple of years ago, she was a full on stereotype of left woman.

I was against oppression before and still am, why would that change?
Why should there be any hard core views, left this, right this?
Is oppression not clear, is right and wrong not obvious?