To not feel sympathy for this mum?

[imreadytodive]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mum-school-holiday-criminal-record-37163490.amp

a mum has been given a criminal record after taking her daughter out of school for two weeks to “see her sick grandmother” and refusing to pay the fine

Surely she realises nobody buys that excuse? If her grandmother was that unwell why wouldn’t she travel to Turkey in the 6 week school holidays leading up to September? I’m

So you understand why work wouldn't grant compassionate leave under these circumstances, but think schools should?

She could have gone in October for one week instead of two. It's convenient that Grandma got sick right when the expensive summer holidays were over but before the weather turned and has since made a miraculous recovery.

Two weeks for a funeral? That’s a holiday tacked on, you know it is.

She looks very pleased with herself. And proud.

It sounds like no evidence before court that gran was dying and her dying wish to see her Granddaughter etc. She had no legal advice and wasn’t legally represented. Eg she seems to have run the DD’s attendance was high argument which had already been rejected as a valid argument in the supreme ct case I linked above. Supreme Court decision binds lower courts they can’t say ok and ignore higher courts authority so that argument was a none starter.
It may have been a different decision if witness statement from dad, gran, medical evidence from dr etc. Giving 20 days notice and an emergency life or death situation do seem incompatible though.

Well the attendance couldn’t be high, it was the start of the year!

@imreadytodive I completely disagree. i think we should give schools the latitude to decide how to apply the policy.

The main argument against allowing kids to have time off school is that it will cause the kids to fall behind and then it’s not fair on teachers who have to bring them up to speed.

A bright child who sits quietly in the corner can probably keep up. A kid like my son - he find school really hard and even one missed day is a problem for him.

Many children receive differential treatment at school - some kids get extra forest school sessions; 1:1 help; “decompression” spaces; rewards for basic things like being able to go a whole day without a meltdown.

Why not let schools have a freer hand on deciding when fines apply? If the HT considered the circumstances without the pressure of applying a blanket policy it might be better.

It sounds like mum was referring to DD’s attendance since enrolling at in reception at primary school. So several years of near perfect attendance inc 100% certificates. This was argument that went to supreme ct that he hadn’t failed to ensure his youngest state school educated child had attended regularly as she had near perfect attendance. The supreme ct rejected his argument.

Excellent points.

About the notice though - we knew my children’s grandparent probably wasn’t going to live an enormously long time (and tbh we hoped that they wouldn’t, advanced dementia is just awful). I was in touch with the school who referred me to the truant officer and we emailed back and forth. She was very understanding. Life is messy and she understood that. I wonder if we would have had more problems if we’d had to leave with less notice?

I do think this mother’s main issue is lack of legal awareness and being unable to submit a compelling case. I don’t think it would have happened to me, not because I’m so special but because I’m lucky enough to be able to pay the fine and argue about it later, and to understand that sometimes principles get you nowhere when faced with an unyielding government.

So you’re saying kids without learning disabilities deserve holidays, but those who have them and they impact their grades don’t?

it’s like anything in life. If you can’t afford it you can’t buy it.

I do and I don't feel sorry for her.

She wasn't given the suspended sentence for taking her daughter out of school but for not paying the fine. She could have paid the fine but chose not to out of principle according to the article. She did take her child out of school and knew there would be a fine (it is very clear when you try and take time out) Although the school did say it 'should be fine'. Although the head teacher can authorise time off they can't authorise that amount of time off and it is the councils decision in the end.

If the child's grandmother was so ill, they shouldn't have waited the 20 days notice they gave school to go. I'm guessing this was something that went against them in court.

Buts fines in this situation are rubbish. It's not who they are aimed and people get caught in the cross fire of councils trying to target regular non attendance.

Yep it totally was! It was a family get-together. We had to go to Australia so there wasn’t really a sensible way of making it much shorter. I wasn’t intending to drip feed but clearly I did, sorry.

Because state schools have to follow arbitrary rules made by politicians who mostly attended private schools.

@Hellometime ”Giving 20 days notice and an emergency life or death situation do seem incompatible though.”

I disagree. My dad had a serious cancer - it wasn’t clear how long he’d live. He had a good relationship with my nephew and really wanted his grandsons (who lived overseas) to see him before he deteriorated and became a shell of himself due to the the side effects of medication, arduous medical treatment, and the encroachment of his brain disease (which high caused amongst other things the loss of speech in his last four months).

It would have been awful if my nephews - who only saw grandad infrequently - had that memory of him.

So we arranged for the kids to visit in a break from treatment - my dad had a few good days with them, quietly at his home. They never had to see him at his worst. I will never forget driving my brother and his boys back to the airport and my dad standing on his doorstep waving goodbye to them. We all knew the boys would never see him again, it was such a sad and precious moment.

Sometimes the aim is to see someone BEFORE you are at death’s door, and planning it for a time when everyone can enjoy that time has immense value.

If she submitted this application 20 days in advance of a September holiday does that mean she submitted it IN the summer holidays? Cos if so if not surprised she didn’t hear back before she went.

She should have paid the fine. If she was that ill she would have been on next flight out of there and gone in August - oh that’s summer holidays and flights are so much more

ive taken dd out of school 3 times. R 1 & 2 and got a fine 1&2 time. Fair enough

R was our cancelled honeymoon from previous year and Covid and school didn’t fine and agreed

but this lady obv did Sept for Cheaper flights. Fair enough. But own it

Ugh. Children aren't property at all, including of their parents! I'm ambivalent on fines for term-time holidays - I'm just not sure they really work - but I absolutely hate the argument that parents always know and do what's best for their children. It's so manifestly untrue.

I’m always a bit torn on this - I don’t think a holiday abroad is a necessity (as many families seem to think?) but the fines are also an OTT punishment.

No, don’t be silly. What I’m saying is children with differing abilities are already differentiated in how school treats themselves.

I’m saying there should be a stronger case for discretion where a child is miles ahead at school and there is a strong family or cultural reason to take time off.

Of course a term time holiday will always be a disruption but if a child is behind average at school and/or has poor attendance then it SHOULD be taken into account when decisions are made about time off.

That means - in a life or death situation; for a funeral; for the wedding of an immediate relative like sibling/parent - time off is granted.

But for marginal cases - wedding of a cousin; trip to see a distant relative who is a bit sickly - then only granted if the HT thinks “well it’s not going to cause much bother to the teacher who thinks it’s okay because the child is doing great at school and doesn’t need to be here to meet this year’s targets or curriculum content.”

I’m a lecturer so typically take the main bulk of my annual leave end of August/early September. I can’t do it throughout August as I supervise masters students and their dissertations are due end of August meaning they will invariably panic and want to meet… I do get Xmas off but it isn’t prime time to go abroad weather wise then obviously plus it’s Christmas so… And Easter I have undergrad dissertations to mark.

Usually we will have our main holiday so the DC miss the first 2-3 days back at school in September. I’m not ashamed of this, their attendance outside of these 2-3 days is typically 100%. The only other time I allow them to miss school is if they have a sickness bug. Never been fined obviously because I believe they have to miss a week straight to incur one.

Should also add my DC are doing just fine at school, eldest currently doing GCSEs and predicted 8/9 in everything, youngest mock phonics screening a few months ago got 38/40 despite having SEN and being classed as ‘non verbal’. They benefit hugely from our family time away and obviously get to absorb another culture.

Yes, I don't understand the argument that it's discriminatory against those who can't afford it to not allow term-time holidays either. If we think that everyone should have the right to a holiday regardless of their income then surely the state should subsidise holidays, or legislate to introduce holiday price capping - why would we accept that holiday companies make all the profit they can, but then say the reasonable response to that is to allow children to miss school?

Yes there may be many reasons you’d want to visit after a terminal diagnosis but before they are on death bed but to avoid being found guilty the mum here needs to satisfy court it was exceptional circumstances. That’s much easier to do if someone is at death bed stage.
As I’ve said above though it sounds like mum didn’t put evidence before court so court had no option but to find her guilty. She sounds very naive.

Are there any stats demonstrating a positive effect on the reduction of truancy because of the threat of these fines and prison sentences.?

Exactly. A holiday is a luxury, if you can’t afford one that’s life.

@Hellometime she does sound naive, and unable to represent herself adequately I agree.

Seems a shame she got a criminal sentence for being bad at lying.

Also, if they were that close she’d have been before!