To find the ‘bedtime routine’ so fucking draining

[FernFaery]

My oldest is 6, youngest is 3.

While neither of my kids are particularly awful sleepers it feels like there’s always bloody something and I have spent thousands of hours of my life sat on bedroom floors in the dark, almost pleading with them to go to sleep. The moment I stopped with my oldest, I had to start the whole charade again with my youngest.

I just want them to stay in their beds and let me have the only couple of hours a day I get to ‘myself’ (aka doing jobs around the house and having some alone time so I don’t absolutely lose my sanity).

If one drops off quickly, the other doesn’t. It feels like they take it in turns to stay up as long as possible. My youngest has a floor bed and at 3 I can’t stop him from getting up, and he will climb the furniture and otherwise do things that mean I can’t just ‘put him behind the stairgate and leave him to settle himself’. My oldest will drop off ok one night and be awake for 2 or even 3 hours the next, constantly coming downstairs or shouting for me, waking up the younger one.

I’m just so drained by it all and long for a time when I can just leave them unsupervised to put themselves to bed

I know I’ll get a ton of ‘I just put mine in their rooms and told them firmly to stay there’ but this just isn’t my life unfortunately

Mine are the same. One sleeps late and goes to bed late and the other crashes early and wakes with the larks. Fml.

It's not my life either so solidarity 🫡 I get it.

No solutions, just sympathy. It is draining.

I feel like I’m getting so shouty and impatient with it now, like I’ve reached my natural limit as to how many nights I can sit on a floor for 2 hours saying ‘time for sleep. Lie down. It’s time to go to sleep now. Lie down. Stop doing X/Y. Lie down. It’s time for sleep now’

It’s been bloody years and years, I’m exhausted and just want a couple of hours to myself

Have a 4yo so can somewhat relate. Two sound hell!

Audiobooks for sleep? There’s loads on Spotify and even better on audible things like Beatrix Potter read by lovely lovely calm voices.

Can you have a basket of toys / special toy that you leave in their rooms when you go to bed - when they wake up they are to stay in room until XX time and play quietly. Toys get taken away when you get up to keep them interesting for the next morning! Switch round as you need. (If they don’t go to bed / behave well, no morning toy box only book etc?)

reward chart for good bedtimes and mornings.

These are things I am considering implementing!!! The toy box for the morning works well for us. I put second hand toys / puzzles or stickers etc and change it weekly thereabouts. It also works to keep my child in bed at bedtime - if I have to come up (obvs serious things I would go up!!) then there’s no box in the morning.

I don’t know if this will raise a psychopath but it helps me now 😅😂

just saw your second post aswell - this is where Spotify is excellent because you can set a sleep timer so it turns off after 30 mins or whatever, and there are many great sleep stories for kids of all ages. You can also slow down the sound.
Calm Collective ‘colours of the rainbow’ is excellent for my son just helping to relax and lie down, listen, breathe calmly. I often make him do several deep slow breaths whilst we say goodnight. Then I’ll put something like the calm collective on, on a slow speed, very low volume so he has to really be still to hear it. Sleep timer on. (Phone on silent doh!!!) You don’t need to stay then!! Xx

@babyproblems thanks for the suggestions. Problem is they literally won’t lie and listen to an audiobook, nor are they motivated by sticker charts - they just want to mess around and get up constantly and only me bellowing at them to get back to bed works (obviously this isn’t ideal parenting but at that point I’ve asked 1000 times ‘nicely’).

They will actually exhaust themselves trying to stay awake. If the oldest starts to drop off she actively kind of forces herself awake again by kicking the end of her bed - hard to describe but it’s like she’s determined not to sleep, or let me sleep. Half of nights she wakes me up by getting in my bed, my youngest is always up at 6 on the dot

I really thought we would all be sleeping OK by this point if not well. It just feels like the lack of sleep phase is going on far longer than I ever thought

Mine were similar so I totally get it YANBU. I actually had my two sharing a room at that age (even though we had the space for a room each) because that stopped me having to keep walking between them, it was easier to put them to bed together (I’m a single parent so was doing it alone). But it depends if you think that would wind them up further. I found it helped bc if one went to sleep I could say to the other ‘ssshhhhhh your brother / sister is sleeping!’

I’ll be that annoying mum of older ones and tell you that it does end eventually. They’re now 13 and 10 and it’s totally different. Though I do still ‘tuck them in’ and they’re up so much later that I still don’t really get an ‘evening’ haha but at least they have better taste in telly now so we can hill together! Hang in there x

@FernFaery this sounds v v v tough!!!
what about beating them at their own game.. could you say ‘ok; everyone bath and in pjs and then you can come downstairs. If you are quiet / calm you can play a board game together or read a book. Any loud / silly behaviour etc and you’ll be up to bed’ and see how long they can actually stay up.
are they very tired when going to bed?
you could try being very ‘nice’ and letting them back downstairs on the condition they don’t bother you and see if it removes the fun fight bit. It sounds like they are enjoying the battle!!! Or could you say ‘ok you can come back downstairs on XX conditions ‘ and give them chores that must be completed eg tidy rooms / folding washing whatever in order for them to have that privilege of coming downstairs and going to bed ‘when they like’.
not sure if those ideas are helpful or sound more like hell for you. Either way I think deffo change something - anything - just to try and break the cycle! xx

It is an awful stage. Mine were only 18 months apart and gave me many difficult evenings. 30 years on I can recall crying “go to sleeeep” in desperation. Their father took no part because he said they should just stay awake until they were tired. How would that have worked????

Things got better when they were early teens when I could just leave them with story tapes.

I am sure if I had had paternal support things would have been much better earlier. I think there does need to be a consequence. My family never had one. If there had been Mumsnet at the time the outcome may have been very different.

If it is any consolation my youngest’s son is giving her difficult bedtimes. I love them dearly but a little voice saying “karma” keeps popping into my head.

This is going to sound completely obvious so I apologise, but have you tried the Supernanny thing ie taking them back to bed without discussion?

I used to say I would never do it because I thought it was dragging them kicking and screaming, but I have rewatched some of them recently and it's not really like that at all. It's just more being consciously neutral and boring. So apparently the first time they get up you just say a phrase like "It's bedtime darling, night night, love you" and then the second time you say "Night night, love you" and the third time (and any subsequent times) you don't speak at all, just return them to bed, but stay very boring and calm while doing it, don't tell them off or give any commentary at all. Although you are meant to not go back if they cry, which I think was the part I found cruel when I watched it before. But now I have a bit more experience I don't think it's cruel for a 6yo to cry at bedtime if there is not an actual fear/worry behind it but they just aren't getting their own way, and I don't think there is always a fear or worry behind being left at bedtime. I don't know if I would be as OK with it for a 3yo who is used to getting a response, but OTOH maybe they would adapt quicker? At least with a 6yo I suppose you could explain the new rules in advance, and maybe change the phrase to something that reminds them of the rule.

I would 100% have to psych myself up for it because I feel like there would be a lot of repetition and I would have to fight the urge to shout exasperatedly. Which I did a lot with DS1. But when DS1 was little I was really sceptical of the whole theory that behaviour repeats if you feed it with attention, and now I am not so sure. I think I misunderstood the theory. It does seem to be true that what you pay/give attention to, whether it's positive attention like talking kindly to them or exasperated screaming, you seem to get more of. I always thought the theory was saying that it was a conscious choice on the child's behalf and I understand more now that this is never what it meant. It's more of a sort of instinctive thing that whatever gets a response they repeat and things which don't get a response are less likely to be repeated. It's not like they are lying there in the dark thinking "There's no point getting out of bed because Mummy won't care " and anyway once you've gone through the actual return to bed routine a few nights in a row and they are consistently sleeping, or at least staying in bed waiting to drop off, it tends to mean they stop doing it for no reason anyway and only do it when there is an actual reason ie they are scared or something hurts - but they do still ask for help in those situations.

But IDK. I don't know if it would have worked with DS1. He has ADHD and has always struggled to fall asleep and he also couldn't let it drop if I wasn't responding to him. I remember timing him once when he stood at the stairgate at the top of the stairs shouting "Mummy! Mummy! Muuuuuuuummy. Mummy? Mummyyyyyy? MUMM-MMMY!!!!!" and he continued for 25 mins before I gave up and went to ask him what was wrong. But OTOH what eventually stopped the bedtime shenanigans for him was when I would give him 3 chances to have me sit on his bed until he fell asleep, and if he scuppered all 3 chances then I'd say that's it then, we can try again tomorrow, night night. He would cry and I'd feel rotten like an old witch, but it did stop the endless carry on, and it stopped me from getting to the stage of bellowing at him. So maybe I just felt like it wouldn't work because I always got to the stage of exasperated shouting and never tried it properly. (He always fell asleep surprisingly quickly after the three chances were up. And if he didn't lose his chances, he usually fell asleep within 20 mins with me there, too).

DS2 has ADHD as well and I think would get very wound up if I didn't respond and I find it difficult not to reply to this because I want to explain. But luckily he is OK with bedtime because he's also very rules orientated (possibly ASD there as well). It's DS3 (4.5) who is the neediest with bedtime at the moment although recently (touch wood) we have been giving him "magic sand sprinkles" (imaginary) to make sure he has good dreams and that results in him going to sleep immediately rather than calling out every 10 minutes 4-5 times.

@BertieBotts thank you, the problem is DS isn’t really ‘safe’ to leave alone in his bedroom - you can leave him for a few minutes when he’s calm and playing during the day, but if I walked off at night he would do everything and anything to get me back, usually involving climbing his furniture (and radiator into the windowsill), things where I can’t risk him being injured to try a new approach IYSWIM

It would potentially work for DD but would take my attention away from DS.

Once DS is older and safer to leave alone I would happily try it with both of them!

Ah yeah I understand that. Sympathies. Well it's something to keep in mind for later maybe. Fingers crossed by then you won't need it!

I started doing things like folding washing quietly just outside. Popping down to get something and make it longer and longer each time. Audiobooks also help.

However my ds has a lengthy 'routine' still which is an OCD nightmare sequence of things we have to do every night. Handshakes, high 5s, certain phrases. It gets longer and longer too.

Even now, when DD is 9, bedtime is still a pain, a different sort of pain (far less exhausting, but still very irritating).

She goes upstairs at 8.15 for a shower, book, bed, and somehow the next 45 minutes are the slowest in all eternity.

She will sit and "pee" for 20 minutes (she is not peeing, she is reading or faffing), she'll find 20 things she MUST do that are not getting in the shower.

She will turn the shower up until it's hotter than the sun, fill the entire bathroom with steam, and come out like a lobster.

Then she'll faff around, not getting her PJs on, her hair dripping on her dry PJs, her wet towel on her dry bed.

Cue another 10-20 minutes faffing before she brushes her teeth.

By the time she's actually in bed, there's no time to read, so she takes 10 min to read "one more page"...

Nowhere near as bad as the baby and toddler phase, but the worst part of the day for everyone involved.

Hi OP, massive sympathy.

It DOES end, it really does.

We now have DD1 11yo and DTs 8yo, but at one point, it was three kids 3yo and under!

The twins' toddlerhood was the worst for bedtimes, I used to get so frustrated.

I am on my own with the twins this w/e, read their chapter books at 7 and 7.30 respectively, upstairs by 8 for quiet reading, lights out 8.15 whilst I had a bath. Not a peep since. So calm.

You will get there, you will. Have a clear firm bedtime routine and persevere.

One thing, GirlTwin used to be loopy at bedtime like your youngest and we used to let her fall asleep in our bed then move her. She was not crazy in ours as the rule was, if you're crazy you can't be in Mummy and Daddy's room, so she was a lot calmer.

Esch to their own methods but my own personal theory with the under sixes is that once they get over tired then adrenaline kicks in and that’s when you get them battling everything endlessly just because they can ifyswim. So we stuck to a rigid routine, putting them to bed half an hour earlier than necessary, taking time over two stories no more, tended not to bath at night because it woke them up, and made sure they always had a lot of physical exercise during the day and a “special talk” about their day at the end of it.

But everything was very predictable, the same words spoken, the same sequences, the same rituals,

I am with you though op; it took forty minutes for each child and I found it exhausting. But they did both sleep through the night. Whether that was connected to the routine or just luck I have no idea really. But worth a try maybe if you are not doing that already which you probably are!

I hear you with the key phrases and rituals! Endless!

If they mess about I threaten to leave them to put themselves to sleep and that seems to work. Sometimes. They were really naughty last night though. Also the song Just Be on Spotify. But it’s 10 past 9 and both mine have only just gone to sleep, age 4 and 2. This is not unusual. Times are tough I just hope it’s the ages they are.

Even now, when DD is 9, bedtime is still a pain, a different sort of pain (far less exhausting, but still very irritating).

She goes upstairs at 8.15 for a shower, book, bed, and somehow the next 45 minutes are the slowest in all eternity.

She will sit and "pee" for 20 minutes (she is not peeing, she is reading or faffing), she'll find 20 things she MUST do that are not getting in the shower.

She will turn the shower up until it's hotter than the sun, fill the entire bathroom with steam, and come out like a lobster.

Then she'll faff around, not getting her PJs on, her hair dripping on her dry PJs, her wet towel on her dry bed.

Cue another 10-20 minutes faffing before she brushes her teeth.

By the time she's actually in bed, there's no time to read, so she takes 10 min to read "one more page"...

Nowhere near as bad as the baby and toddler phase, but the worst part of the day for everyone involved.

I hear this and it was exhausting pre 9. Teenagers are easier. It is hard every single night and eventually I got more and more boring so that there was no possibility of anything interesting happening post the official bed time ritual. Post 12, I stop getting involved. They regulate themselves well now.