To think school leaving age should be 16 again

[Walkyrie]

For a multitude of reasons, but primarily because there are so many children not suited to the classroom who should really be starting work but instead drift/drop out as they’re bored but too young to gain full time employment. And this is not the right start to working life.

It is isn't it? My son left at 16. Yes they have to be in some sort of training until 18 but not school. My son went into an apprenticeship at 16. The youngest on the apprenticeship by 4 years but he loved it and has excelled in his field.

That’s great but what about kids who just want to work in a shop for a few years until they figure out what they want to do? A work ethic and basic skills in employment is learning. Not everyone knows what they want at 16

Agree.

Theres a whole cohort of kids sort of under the radar as nobody actually does anything if they aren’t in training or education but they also can’t really access employment either

Job training or a college course rightly counts as being at school.

My son spent 18 months very ill at age 17 and wasn’t at school or in training and there were no checks or consequences for him or me.

They can, DD went to work in Boots at 16 - nobody comes knocking on your door to check where they are.

Whilst it's technically compulsory no one checks so if they really want to do absolutely no further training then they can definitely just get a job. However you don't have to know what you want to do at 16 to do an apprenticeship or further training just do something you feel like at the time. I am not doing a job I trained for at 16 and neither are any of my friends or relatives.

In Scotland kids can leave school at 16 and go to college,start an apprenticeship or start working. There is no legal requirement to continue in some sort of education until they are 18.

Better for them to do some kind of training or apprenticeship then while they have the time, fewer responsibilities and the qualification is free.

@ExtraOnions my son did the same. Making him stay in school when he had a job lined up that he wanted to do would've been pointless. And any apprenticeship opportunities were lower paid than the job he went on to do. This is the problem , the apprenticeship system seems to be set up so that kids can be cheap labour.

Oh and an apprenticeship will definitely teach a work ethic and basic skills in employment just as much as a full time job would.

I believe that removing compulsory post-16 participation would probably increase inequality and reduce national skill levels unless there were strong alternative employment pathways available.

Countries with successful early-leaving systems usually have strong vocational routes, such as apprenticeships and employer training schemes, like those seen in Germany or Switzerland.

Without those systems, many young people could become disconnected from both education and employment.
People who stop education early are statistically more likely to:

• earn lower wages
• experience insecure employment
• rely on part-time or temporary work

Over time, this could widen inequality and widen the gap for disadvantaged students and many may just ‘drift’.

I know a girl who did her GCSEs last summer, she has spent a year at home doing nothing, no one has knocked on her parents door to check what she’s up to.

@kscarpetta a lot of these so called apprenticeships are just kids doing the same jobs as 18+ people for less money.

Yes but at least they get a qualification from it.

During Covid I worked in a college in the construction department. The level one classes were 70% kids who either didn’t want to be there or didn’t really engage.

The college couldn’t kick them out for except for the likes of drug dealing/violence.

The whole thing was a mockery, waste of tax payers money but also a shame for the kids who did want to be there.

The final term we were bribing the kids to attend with pizza and basically promising their parents if they could get them there for a week they would pass.

Students weren’t allowed to fail. The college only received majority of their funding for the students who passed. 94% pass rate. Go figure.

Also, unfortunately, some of those lads had equivalent to KS1 maths. I tried to do a session on using a ruler as in times cm by 10 to get mm, or stick a zero at the end. Zero chance to pass a carpentry course without spoon feeding. Apparently all the majority of the lecturers had left, as understandably it felt like a waste of their time/skills.

My Niece left at 16, no one at the school cared. There is nothing to stop them leaving at that age.

I agree. I see the value in most apprenticeships, and some vocational college courses. But their are so many courses that are a complete waste of time with the main beneficiary being the lecturer/teacher because they can pickup a pay cheque.

I would also say university needs to get back to the same percentage levels as the 1990s. So many people on here regret racking up debt doing a course because their teachers and careers advisors persuaded them in was the normal thing to do.

The minimum wage for apprentices and under 18s is the same so unless a 16 year old can find a job paying above NMW then the pay will be the same but the apprentice will get 20% of their time in training rather than work (a nice easy day compared to being at work usually) for the same money and a qualification at the end of it.

I live in Germany and there is still a requirement for teens to be in education or training until 18. If they don't enrol in something they get auto enrolled instead. And there are a lot of apprenticeships locally for things like Lidl bakery or Aldi warehouse, which just seems to me to be an excuse to pay younger people lower wages. I feel like in the UK 10 years ago (or whenever they changed the rule) a 16yo could just WORK at the Lidl bakery or in the Aldi warehouse.

There are positives about the German system but I wouldn't paint it as a utopia. There is a lot of headscratching stuff as well.

@Littletreefrog I'm pretty sure this wasn't the case when the system began. I remember sitting down with my son to research his options and he did earn more taking a job as opposed to doing many of the apprenticeships available. They were also rather difficult to find back then.

I'm glad the system appears to be better now , but I remember it's first few years and it was a mess.

I agree in theory but where are jobs?
I have a 19 year old who is just finishing a training course hes just done 19 weeks of unpaid work experience no job at the end of it
Hes desperste to work and
applying for all kinds of jobs

I think it is mandatory but nothing is done/followed up if you leave college early, which doesn’t make sense to me.

I live in Switzerland. I think the Swiss/German system is better.

Though one negative is a lot of people seem to think they can only do the job they did an apprenticeship in, they feel uncomfortable doing anything else. (Just my observation)

Sadly there is not the capacity to follow up students who are not in education, employment or training.

Perhaps the apprenticeship model needs to be revisited on a policy level. In Germany nine years of full time school are required (but starting at age 6, woth Kindergarten from 3-6 not included but almost universally taken up as it's theoretically free, so 12 years from age 3) and young people have to remain in education - including part time vocational education - until age 18, with a right to 13 years school - not unusual to have circumstances meaning they finish at 20 - even if it takes them past 18).

In practice a child who doesn't enjoy school and wants to work in retail would do the entry level apprenticeship but this will give equivalency to the next level of education in a limited subject specific context and entitle them to go on to the next level of apprenticeship or eventually to study a related vocational subject.

You can leave school in some states at 15 with a basic school leaving certificate, at 16 with GCSE equivalent, or at roughly 18 with university entrance qualifications (the system is even more complicated in reality, but essentially...).

If you leave at 15 having passed the school leaving exams you can do a one year apprenticeship in something like retail or the most basic level of social care or as a nursery helper, or in trades and building woth helper/ assistant level qualifications and then can later or immediately build on that with a three year apprenticeship - direct entry to the three year apprenticeship needs GCSEs.
Once you've passed that you can do a vocational degree (say retail management or business in the retail example) - sometimes that requires three years of full time work after the three year apprenticeship, sometimes not, it depends on the exact level of the apprenticeship (some are EQF level 6 which is bachelor equivalent but not actually a degree...).

It's complicated but in principle good because it pffers real, paid (usually) work combined with day release or block weeks at college, so some education continues in parallel with real work and earning, and there are always options.

The down side is it can be hard to change field as absolutely everything except the most unskilled level possible requires the relevant apprenticeship!