To be really struggling with untidy ds

[untidymess26]

My five and a half year old ds is a whirlwind, always has been. I’ve always struggled with the mess he makes to be honest. Things will be strewn throughout the house and garden and it leaves this general sense of chaos everywhere.

I have tried various strategies to manage it. I’ve tried rotating toys but I forget where I’ve put them and anyway it isn’t really toys - he does strew them around but it’s fairly easy to collect them and put them in a box. But it’s as if whatever he does has to be maximum mess. He pulls his duvet off the bed, books are everywhere, phonics cards (he is in reception) and pillows. He will take his pyjama bottoms off in the morning if he goes to the toilet and leave them somewhere random. Even after school sometimes he’ll decide he needs something from his book bag and empty the contents. He’ll want to do drawing and leave paper, colours everywhere. I’m exhausted dealing with it to be honest.

He plays outside a lot which is good but can’t seem to stop making a mess there and I am not precious about the garden but piling dirt up inside the house (ffs) and turning the outdoor tap on so it’s sludge outside.

I try to get him to tidy up but the whole process takes so long and is so widespread that it’s counterintuitive; it creates more work for me rather than less. And I do tell him not to eg turn the tap on and you’ll have to come inside if you can’t but then he just makes a mess indoors.

Does anyone else have a child like this? He was once away for the weekend with DH and I was home with his toddler sister and the house looked much the same throughout the weekend. Ds comes home and it’s trashed. It is starting to get me down to be honest.

So keep your child in the same room as you. Restrict them to one room of the house at a time. Limit the number of things he can get to. If you know your 5 year old can ransack a house within a few seconds, then put damage limitation in place (and still insist he clears up after himself. Every time).

Do you think (e.g) he throws paper and pencils all over the floor when he is at school? I suspect he doesn't. Because he's learnt it's not appropriate, and/or there are consequences.

Yes, it is hard. A lot of parenting is. But worth it :)

Impossible to do that, these suggestions may mean well but I’m not sure anybody is thinking about how they could actually implement them.

Before starting bedtime could you take him on a 'tidy up walk' through the house to show him the chaos he's causing (explaining, for example, that things left out might mean someone trips and hurts themselves, or that if you have to do it all that's less time you have to spend playing with him, or that he might have to wait longer for dinner), get him to help you put things back and ask him to help you come up with a few solutions to the problem?
Solutions might be if he wants to do a craft thing (you mentioned making fans) he checks - mummy can I get some paper, sellotape, pens etc out? Or add a new step into the morning routine that he has to put his pjs back on his bed (even if he can't do the duvet). Or a new step in the bedtime routine of putting back all the clothes that fell out/books he knocked over whilst rummaging, or whatever mess he's made, and only then does he get story time or whatever. If you can get showered and dressed before he's up (depends what time he gets up!!) that's less time he's unsupervised to make the mess.

I know some of this is easier said than done, but personally I am not a big fan of the negative feedback of consequences/removal of stuff as he's not deliberately setting out to cause chaos, he's just a small child who still has little understanding of the impact he has on others and doesn't get understand that he's not the centre of the universe. Hard to think that way when faced with the mess and trying to meet the needs of both children, I know!
Good luck

Yes, you're right OP. Absolutely no one here had similar children, or similar experiences or have any idea how hard parenting is.
I'd just continue letting him make a mess and tidying up after him, because clearly none of the suggestions (which will work if you stick to them) are useful.

or actually you could just give them a go before throwing up your hands in despair before you've even tried?

If your 5 year old makes a mess you tell him to tidy it up. He can whine as much as he likes, he doesn't get to do anything else until he's done it. If he tries to walk away, pick him up and take him back. Even if it takes hours. Do you have a partner? If he's that strong willed that it will take hours, then tag team with your partner - one stands over the 5 year old and one does all the other things that need doing. If you don't have a partner, can you enlist the help of a friend or family member, or at least ask someone to look after your other child for an afternoon?

I would cut things down to a minimum. Paper? A couple of sheets, once he's used them he can have a couple more. Felt pens, switch to crayons, primary colours only. Once he keeps them in one area he gets a few more. If he doesn't you aren't overwhelmed.
Maybe have a chart for morning routine, 'right, ds we're doing this next. Leave your paper, toys, etc, in their box and on we go' type of thing. Put his book bag in the front of the car then he can't empty it in the back. Everything can be gradually increased or changed. Explain to him what he has to do and stick to it. Out of interest, have you asked if he's a whirlwind at school? Does he follow the rules and put things away?
I realise this isn't easy, but it is grinding you down and your daughter will soon be following in his footsteps and I know you realise this but twice the amount of mess will seem so much more than that.

Of course it's not impossible. Parents up and down the country do it all the time.

It might be hard, stressful and incredibly frustrating and time-consuming, but it's not impossible.

It's only impossible of you can't be bothered.

Why can't he be in the same room as you? Why can't you bring him to the area he has destroyed and stand there until he tidies it? Why is he not brought back into the bathroom to pick up his clothes? Why is he not brought back into his room to tidy his drawer?

Yes, it will never be perfect because he's 5... but just saying "I can't do that. He refuses. He won't do it" at the age of 5 will cause you serious issues when he's a teen!

The suggestions are all completely standard.

My 3 year old is like this, im trying to make him tidy up a bit and tell him I’ll help him but its lots more effort right now than doing it myself I hope it will pay off!
I think the skill you need to teach is look and see what needs to be done and and instant reward when he finds something to do and does it (eg looks around and sees the sellotape is on the floor, picks it up and puts it back in drawers it came from). The chocolate button. Instant, then fade this back to a star chart to earn a fun treat and start rewarding into every so often like a slot machine.
also narrate as you look around - I’m scanning for jobs to do I can spy a few can you? Make it a game . HIS FATHER NEEDS TO DO THIS TOO AND BE ON BOARD!

I also think it sounds like he needs his own table for arts and crafts/junk modelling and his own bin next to it. This might help contain it so a certain area.

if PJs and duvet are an issue every day then at least a chair he puts his duvet on and a bin or hook he puts his PJs on would help your sanity

@redskyAtNigh it isn’t that, it’s more that it worked for you and that’s fine, I’m genuinely pleased. But I also know that quite a few ‘standard advice’ things haven’t worked for me and maybe for some others. They aren’t infallible. I haven’t been rude or unpleasant but just the same I know I can’t practically keep him next to me at all times or supervise him every second of the time he’s with me. Perhaps if I only had him and I had ample time I would but as it is that’s not the case and even then I’m not sure it would be workable.

At any rate thanks for letting me vent. We seem to have hit a particularly trying time and he feels like a cyclone in my life just at the moment 🤦🏼‍♀️

i have a kid like this. You have to pick your battles. What helps you the most? Start with the duvet. Teach him how to get out of bed without throwing it on the floor. Practice that for a few weeks, with consequences/rewards if necessary. Once that is mostly solved, move on to putting his pyjamas in the hamper. Do the same. Then move on to stacking a sheaf of papers. Learn to break basic skills down into steps then have him practice each step. One skill at a time. it will take a long time but you will move forward. This will likely be a kid whose papers are stuffed in his backpack in no particular order, so you want to build foundational skills first, then move onto higher skills so he builds confidence.

imo the basic problem is probably executive function with a little dyspraxia thrown in. my son did the same and when I observed him systematically, his body movements were just very uncoordinated. His arms would be flailing all over without him even noticing. Everything in their path would go flying. Fascinating.

"I try to get him to tidy up but the whole process takes so long and is so widespread that it’s counterintuitive; it creates more work for me rather than less."

This is parenting I'm afraid op. It's pretty relentless. Mine are teenagers now and I still walk around the house muttering ffs to mysyelf, ending passive aggressive photo's of plates left on the sofa or empty packets have been left in the cupboard to the family whatsapp with a message threatening to turn off the internet if they don't sort it out!

Yep. Our 14yr old is the same. We make him stand in the room and ask him "what's wrong in here".... could take him ages to realise there's loads of empty wrappers on the floor. But if I just cleaned it up, he'd keep doing it.

In adults (particularly men I find) it seems to be called weaponised incompetence. "I can't do it right so I just won't do it". But tbf if a child is never taught then you can't blame them as adults.

I think this sounds unusual, op, and I think you're getting a bit of a hard time. I had young DC top and I don't recall this level of extreme trashing of literally everything at every step.
You may need to take a step back and teach him very clearly how to take off his PJs: take off and put in drawer or basket. How to look for something: look, and also replace all items where they were. How to get out a piece of paper: get one out. Not all of them. Put the one on the table. The others stay where they were.
He is not too young to learn that there are steps to things. And not too young to understand that this has an impact on you, even!

@cordeliavorkosigan my younger child isn’t like this at all. Of course, she gets toys out but they are contained and in one place.

I have been grouchy today, been finding ds very challenging of late. He has lovely qualities but can be very difficult to parent because he is quick to temper, he can be very dramatic (a favourite trick at the moment is to burst into tears and wail he misses nursery!) and yes he is an absolute tornado, shooting through the house leaving a wake of destruction in his tracks. Of course, I try to manage it as best I can but sometimes you just can’t (example I have to leave for work and he’s caused a huge mess; I can’t then insist he clears it because, well, I have to go to work!) but I don’t want it there all day either.

I am hoping he’ll calm with age.

When it is time to tidy up put a song on, something brisk and fast, and you and he have to run round frantically picking up everything you can until the song finishes. You could try the Clean Up song by the Singing Walrus on Youtube but personally I prefer the Benny Hill theme tune!

You'll need to model this with him for a bit but eventually you should be able to say, 'Ok - let's see how much you can do before the end of the song'.

We’ve definitely tried that 😂thanks though

Locks on doors. Baby locks on every cupboard. He has to ask if he wants to open something. If he takes something off open surfaces, then you ask him to do specific tasks i.e. put all of these pens back in the drawer, hang up this jumper etc. Time-consuming? Yes. Infuriating? Also yes. But, sadly, necessary.

@Catza i appreciate the suggestion but we are a normal family with a normal home. There is no way both children’s toys should be under lock and key and every pen, piece of paper, jigsaw puzzle, game, item of clothing or book. I think I’d rather the current situation would be preferable to that

I don't mean to sound patronising... but i do find a big difference between boys and girls. Boys are absolute chaos. Girls a bit calmer and less destructive. I don't think comparing the 2 helps.

I'd suggest just locking doors if you for some reason can't keep him in one room with you. But overall he just needs to learn, as others have said, take one thing at a time. So maybe a week or two of just focusing on him picking up his pj's pants? Then when it's routine, focus on something else (not in the morning so less rush).

It's hard work, but unfortunately need sti be done. And get your partner on board too... so you do the morning 1 job, and your partner makes.aure the evening job gets done.

I’m not diagnosing anything or saying your DS is the same but my youngest is like this and has inattentive ADHD. His is mild as in it doesn’t massively impact the rest of his life thank goodness but the random chaos, losing things and mess creation is on another level. All the reminders and teaching in the world just doesn’t seem to make a difference and he genuinely can’t help it. My other DS have been brought up the same and are nothing like my youngest. I’m trying to teach him to stop, turn around at look at where he’s been. Take stock and try and see the mess but I’m failing miserably 🤣🤣
Also, if it is ADHD, the starting something is just too much, and an entire job can be overwhelming which can come across as stubbornness or unwillingness. Breaking it down into chunks and doing it with them really helps. I feel your pain though!!

@untidymess26 does your son go to school or nursery? He will absolutely be tidying up there, before snack time, before every transition.

I know you said it’s one thing after another and I do see that, but I wonder whether it’s worth you dedicating a bit of time to this. Is his dad around to support? So that if he refuses to tidy up one activity, that is the point at which games and playing stop. “We can’t get something else out until we’ve tidied up this activity” on repeat. Obviously the adult with him helps, but you stick to it no matter what he does and he has the consequences (so eg if he cries or tantrums or otherwise refuses, he is free to carry on playing with what’s out but not to get out a new thing). The reward for tidying can be moving on to something else, and then maybe a cumulative nice surprise for him if he starts to be more helpful, say three times in a row, and he can have something special which is explicitly linked to him having cooperated with what you want.

It will take time and you have to be absolutely rigid. Praise and reward him and his sister for doing the thing you want, even if it’s just a little bit, but be adamant that it has to be done before a new toy or interest comes out. So “no, we can’t do that because this stuff is still all over the floor. When it’s away we can [whatever]” on repeat. It will be so boring but it’s important that you stick with it.

Also allow there to be a reset after every adult-led activity, for example if he doesn’t tidy up before lunch and you have a row, don’t carry that over into the after-lunch period but let him use a new slate. If he continually refuses, maybe do the tidying after a quick pre-lunch snack (am thinking back to my dd who (still now) would become absolutely unreasonable if she was even a bit hungry (wouldn’t recognise hunger but the behaviour quickly became familiar to me 😂)) and before proper lunchtime. It may be easier for him to comply if he’s had a little food input.

I actually thought similar myself that it sounds potentially like ADHD, I just didn't want to mention 😂 Sometimes you can be castrated on MN for mentioning something like that.

If it is ADHD, then yes, the chaos is often a major symptom and the person doesn't even notice how it might be annoying or messy themselves. I recommended just starting with one thing and making it a habit (so start with taking him in every morning and picking up his pjs, nothing else). Do this every day in the same order for 2+ weeks and then move into a different habit. Essentially habit stacking the things that happen everyday.

It would be similar to how he has to act in school.... put X books away like everyone else before we take out Y books.