AIBU to question how different kinds of work should be valued?

[Holdinguphalfthesky]

How should work be valued? I’m in a profession that requires postgraduate qualifications and regular CPD and checks, but which is paid well below others doing similar work (I’m a teacher in FE; the FE pay scale is lower than the mainstream 4-16 pay scale) and is well below what the workload might seem to require. This is common across a number of sectors, I know.

Meanwhile we see people complaining about paying £20/hr for cleaning services, because although we all see it as necessary work that needs doing, we don’t require qualifications for it. we also see some employed people earning well above £100,000 per year.

I think current value is ascribed based on old notions of worth, which came down through the class system so we seem to value academic qualifications and ‘thinking jobs’ over vocational or practical qualifications and ‘doing jobs’ (medicine maybe an exception). But the intrinsic value we ascribe doesn’t always equate to value in pay.

My question is how should we pay people, on what basis do we assign a financial value to their work? As a thought experiment maybe ask yourself about jobs you don’t do.

I don’t have an answer, really, but I have the idea that all work should pay enough to live well on, and there shouldn’t be the size of gap that exists between the bottom rung and the top (particularly among employed people), but if you were starting from scratch, would you still assign pay in the ways we seem to now? Or would you, if it were up to you, reorder things so that maybe nurses and care workers earned more than fund managers (just an example, I know both jobs are important in different ways)? Or pay everyone the same?

Thats not market demand though. Demand for care is high. But societally we do not value the work highly enough to pay it well. So there is a labour shortage.
My response was to a PP saying market demand drives wages. That is not true in all areas.

I see so much disrespect for the traditional professions online now. Teachers, police officers, nurses. The types of people who denigrate them also tend to be those who couldn’t or wouldn’t do those jobs for that pay too, I’m thinking degree, certain level of fitness and medical clearance, clean criminal record check etc only to work crazy hours and be abused all day long.

I know this isn't the question but I'm going to point out that if you were an FE lecturer in Scotland you'd be on £50359 with pay award pending* (I imagine around the 52k mark).

*Negotiations start in September

Pay them on how long it takes to train to do the job. On this basis nurses would be paid much more than train drivers ... which is currently not tge case and absolutely based on sex.

Those are public sector jobs though so market forces don't apply in the normal way. Pay is set by the government, not by the market.

Also, in the case of teaching, whilst the pay might be considered low for how important the role is, it comes with some lifesyle benefits which people value (meaning they will accept a lower wage than if those lifestyle benefits didn't exist). Both teaching and nursing have good pensions relative to private sector jobs paying the same. So it's not as simple as looking at the salary.

I think part of the worth is based on if the person paying can do the job themself.

So are you paying for your time and because you don’t have the skillset or are you just paying for your time?

If the latter the amount you are willing to be charged is lower. I can clean my own house so there is a limit to how much I will pay somebody else to do it for me.

This has been proven. There was a research paper that showed as women entered male dominated industries, the salaries decreased overall. The better paying ones are now the old school male roles: electricians, plumbers, builders. They’ll also survive AI

Care workers should definitely be better paid. They are responsible for vulnerable people who can't safeguard themselves, in some areas like dementia care or mental health they can experience assault, sexualised behavior towards them, verbal abuse. They hold the hands of people who are dying, comfort and reassure people in their most vulnerable moments. I think it's an absolute disgrace that most are on minimum wage and earning less than someone who safely sits behind a desk doing admin.
The difficulty with increasing a carers wage is that it is based on local authority funding. If their wage goes up, the wage of everyone in the authority goes up. Those like social workers and teachers who also do a stressful job were they are at risk and responsible for vulnerable people, then their line managers need an increase, then senior leaders and so on. It would need to be paid for by the tax from those in the private sector, which wouldn't go down well.
If you put everyone on the same wage, a lot of people won't bother doing the jobs that require qualifications and carry more responsibility. Why have the additional stress of teaching if you get the same for being a TA? Why take on the extra stress and responsibility of being a doctor if you can be a care worker?

Were men exiting those industries at the same rate as women were entering them though thereby keeping the size of the workforce the same? Or was there just more labour available?

I think often we are looking for a single answer to this question. A single driving force that determines wages and worth (which are likely separate things anyway).

I am paid an embarrassing amount of money because I make tens of millions per year for my employer. There is no specific defined skill set for it, it’s just a combination of work experience, life experience, temperament and personality. I try to mentor others to do the same and would happily hire people in, but they just don’t seem to make the same amount for the company as me. I don’t find the job difficult. I don’t work particularly hard. The job is not stressful. To me, everything I do is just common sense.

There is no doubt at all that a good nurse, or teacher, or park ranger, or accountant, or carer is morally worth the same remuneration as I get, but the market forces don’t work that way.

By paying me well my employer gets a 20-30 fold return on their money, so it is more like an investment I guess?

But would I like more people like me, or more good nurses? Definitely nurses!

It’s not just money it’s the nature of the role. I would never be a care worker even if it paid more than doctors.

The problem with teaching and nursing and, to a slightly lesser extend doctors, is that all of those professions, in the UK at least, are primarily working for the state in one way, shape or form. So in a 'market' where there is only one employer, the employer becomes the determiner of pay - because bar striking, the employee has few other options. Less state interference / control of those sectors might lead to more competition among employers and, if there really is a shortage of employees, an increase in salary. But the societal cost in terms of access to education or healthcare might be undesirable. It's a risk of choosing that sort of career where there is just one employer. The flip side is, broadly, the risk of losing your job is lower than in a commercial enterprise

Nope - it’s gendered.

It's quite possible that the surgeon needs someone to run their home/childcare though. Hospitals couldn't run without cleaners/admin. and catering staff either, and nor could schools. There isn't one answer.

It's not that these jobs aren't needed, it's that there are more people that have the skills to do them and the salary reflects rarity value.

Pay is not a reward for one's intrinsic worth as a person, it is an inducement to reject other employment or pastimes in order to perform the tasks required by the employer.
If the employer requires a specific skillset that few people are willing or capable of acquiring, that inducement has to rise.

I could go back to being a barmaid - I was good at it, but my last employer was willing to pay a lot more than the pub for my time, because I'm a chartered accountant with a STEM degree. The pub just needs someone capable of operating a till, keeping the bar clean & tidy, and keeping the punters happy and well-behaved.

Not sure that IS the case though. As on the other thread, if you've ever tried to find a good cleaner, you'd soon realise that actually, most people either don't have those skills or don't want to do that job.

Some interesting points here, thanks all!

it’s one of my favourite questions to ask people: if all jobs were paid the same, would you still do your job?

i had a friend who gave herself a nervous breakdown trying to do it all, because she attached so much value to being a high earner - not because she loved what she did. Her youngest dd told her that she wanted to be a nursery teacher and my friend basically laughed at her, because she’d never earn a decent income doing that. My friend actually wanted to do something completely different, but it didn’t pay well enough to get her the status or the lifestyle she wanted.

i think people would still want challenging jobs because people need meaning in their lives. But they wouldn’t do them in the same way. Everything would have to change 😵‍💫

I have a good cleaner

I envy you.

I bet people who do the dusting are not on that much less than People who do One Heart Surgery .

Not where l live anyway.

This question has always been an old chestnut. Do agree that Public Sector and NHS workers are now been used by this Government to keep.pay rates down

And losing status as well.in their job descriptions.
This is not on.But don't know what the answer is.