British childhood/schooling versus elsewhere in Europe. Is it really so bad?

[Rosacharmosa]

This morning I saw an Instagram post describing a British 5 year olds morning vs a Scandivian childs morning. It said that the British child will have a rushed and stressful experience being pushed out the door at 7am for school, whereas the Scandinavian child will have a slow morning looking at the frost on the grass outside before heading off to forest school in the afternoon.

I only have one European friend (as in still living abroad) with a same age child as me (4-5) and yes her child doesn't go to formal school but she goes to nursery which starts at 8am and finishes at 5pm because my friend and her husband still have a full time job.

The messaging seems to be that British children are locked away inside classrooms studying while their same age European peers are frolicking in the forests all day. For those who were schooled or whose children are schooled abroad, is this really true?

A school day here is only 6 hours with constant school holidays, seems like plenty of time for frolicking in the outdoors yet I constantly read that British children are shut away indoors, writing at desks and consequently have a miserable childhood. I'd love to hear about some of the differences abroad from those who have lived it, in terms of time spent outdoors/independence/attitudes to play vs academics etc.

I live in the Home Counties. Primary school meant putting on your wellies to walk down a bridal path for 10 mins to school which started at 8:50. The school had its own bluebell wood to run around in. After school 3pm was spent playing football on the village green before getting back home 5ish for tea. Bit of homework. Usually two or three extra-curricula - cubs, football training or swimming - all physical and social across the week - and loads of time spent playing outdoors. They are all now young adults, very fit mentally and physically with many outdoorsy / sporting hobbies that they have continued.

The only thing different from my feral 70s childhood is that they never really had the freedom to ride their bikes as too much fast busy traffic on narrow semi rural roads.

My friend has never expressed an opinion on it - I just meant she's the only person I know with children outside of the UK. Her daughter is the same age as mine but not at 'school' but in some kind of other formal setting doing the same things as my own daughter. And the days are longer/no holidays.

There’s definitely a certain type of person / parent who fetishes Scandinavia and all they do.

I think it is nonsense.

YABU for taking anything you see on Instagram seriously.

Our British school does forest school, outside lessons in the good weather and plenty of breaks outside across the day.

I live on the continent and my childhood was MUCH easier than that of children here, but I'm quite old so I'm not comparing the same time period.

Yes, they learn to read a bit later here, but they are at nursery school from 2 and almost every child is in creche after a few months. Homework and exams are a big stress even before they start secondary. Secondary schooling is still split into technical and academic and repeating years is very common. They do many more subjects and longer hours.

A friend of mine lives in Scandinavia. She says that the flexibility of work hours is great, and that children have loads more freedom, but doesn't rate the quality of the education at all.

We are in Scotland. My kids saunter out the house at 9.05ish for the 2 min wander up the cliff to primary school. They can see the sea from every classroom and spend plenty of time outside as part of the school day.

There seems to be a desire to slate the "British" education system.
Firstly, its not one education system, each country is different.
Secondly, although the various education systems have their major flaws, SM, MSM, the government and others love to trash the system that they have created and blame the teachers for all its woes.
Finally, its not comparing like for like, especially when so many different metrics are being used.

Not doing great on mental health though, are we.
My kid currently attends American-pattern overseas. They do things a bit later and a broader curriculum. Closer to Scottish than English but different from both. I think it is much better. (Than my English education.)

Not doing great on mental health compared to whom?

Anyway I suspect living in a declining nation in a time of fundamental international change and late stage capitalism impacts mental health as well as school

From what I saw the difference is that there seems to be more ‘shame’ and fear of failure engendered in UK schools even from a very young age.

In contrast in the Scandinavian country I experienced, particularly when children were young, there seemed more of an understanding that children ‘get’ things at different ages - so very relaxed, no ‘row’ if a five year old can’t master a letter formation, just a ‘never mind, you’ll get there.’ A relaxed stress free learning environment with non stressed children.

The U.K. systems seem very be prescriptive, although I believe Scotland has more flexibility- but it seems to have its own problems.

My kids, now adults, spent their school years in Northern Italy. They had early starts, but lessons finished at 12.30, however children with working parents stayed on for lunch and after school activities until. 16.30. They also attended school on Saturday mornings. They had masses of homework from the word go, there was no outdoor break time, and children had to pass in all subjects in order to go up to the next year, even in primary school. It was a nightmare. Also there were no half terms, short Christmas and Easter holidays, and a 3 month summer holiday with very few holiday activities available for children. My son finished his schooling in Italy, but my daughter continued her schooling in the UK from the age of almost 16, and did much better here than she would have done in Italy. I have grandchildren who are going through the Italian education system now, and nothing much seems to have changed. Just my experience!

Non british upbringing here.
School started at 8am, until 1pm in primary school, 3pm in secondary school. Compulsory homework for at least 1-2 hours right from the start.
I was 6 when i started formal school, pre-school before that (same hours). Pre-school isn’t compulsory (and needs to be paid for), but a child who doesn’t go starts with a significant disadvantage as Pre-school roughly covers what is taught in reception and the first half of year 1.

I am French and have family and friends in France. School in France is quite old fashioned - lots of rote learning at primary school for instance. No forest school or much time outdoors. School playgrounds are often mostly tarmac. PISA scores are dropping every time and it’s worrying French governments and people. The school system is obsessed with grades and “tu as quelle moyenne ?” (I.e. what is your average combined grade /20). My family members and friends find everything I tell them about the English school system fabulous! They keep going on about school in England which seems to them a bit like a mixture between french and scandinavian schools. BTW I have two primary aged kids and I am also a teacher.

I just checked online and United Kingdom is ranked 16th best in the world. Yes there’s room for improvement. Next door Ireland is 10th, and we could learn a lot from them I’m sure. However, there’s many countries ranked below. The British system is still one of the best education systems in the world.

worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/education-rankings-by-country

Just an add on - i would never ever send a child to school in my European home country. I love my children
Its not france, but similar in terms of loads of rote learning, very little play time, and a focus on grades with a grammar school like system designed to decide at age 9 if you are university “material “, ready for an apprenticeship, or minimum wage.

I think 16 is good. You really have to consider if you want to be. ie I am pretty sure we don’t want an education system like South Korea, Japan or China, so not being the top isn’t a bad thing. It’s about balance. Counties with small populations also do well (Ireland, Finland) and this is widely acknowledged to be a factor in their performance. We can’t replicate that.

there is a great book that deep dives into the potential reasons behind the top performers. South Korea is INSANE

They have to pass all subjects to go to the next grade in Finland* too but I view that as a good thing. Its no good progressing a child to the next grade if they haven't got to grips with even the basics of their current grade, they'll just fall further and further behind and that's not good for anyone (not for the student, not for the teacher who has to teach children at wildly different levels, not for their classmates who get less attention because the teacher will naturally need to give the struggling child more time and help)

*they're supposed to but there is an issue with a lot of teachers giving "mercy 5s" so the children pass when really they ought to fail. If they fail they get the opportunity to do some extra studying and take some exams in the summer to show mastery, but if they fail those then they are kept behind.

@darkrainysunshine completely agree with you. SIL married a Dane and lives in Copenhagen and it’s far from perfect just like nowhere is perfect! Our DC are similar ages and in reality they are all doing largely the same things whether at school in EYFS or the Danish equivalent to preschool.

In France school starts at 3yo. Basically play school. For the first 3 years they have obligatory naps in the afternoon.

School had 3 course meals at lunch. Wrap around care or childminders after school. Parents work full days. Maternity leave is 13 weeks. It worked brilliantly for us. Childcare is heavily subsidized because the best option for the state is to have a large working population.
At 8 (I think - can’t quite remember) there is homework, which can be done at homework club.
My kids didn’t have school on Wednesdays so I didn’t work on Wednesdays either. That had a bit impact on my pension but I made alternative arrangements.
Most French kids are pretty easy. Play really well with younger kids - rarely see that in the UK. The life of kids revolves around the parents not the other way around. Much less tortured parents here. I’ve enjoyed it. Mine were all born here and are no young adults living independently.

I home educated (not by choice) and my god the Facebook groups were full of it.

Ah instagram, the home of nuanced and in-depth journalism.

Firstly, the UK is in Europe and only recently left the economic and political union. Secondly, Scandinavia is a small part of Europe and the education and economic norms are very different there. I live in the Netherlands and nursery is very common here. DD now 19 went to a Peuterspeelzaal from 2.5 and started at 9.00 am until 12.00 some of DD’s peers went full time to nursery from 08:00 until 18:00, it depended on the circumstances of the parent/parents.

Europe is not one culture!!!

France - long days, loads of holidays.

My kids old Primary School starts at 08h20 and ends at 16h45. There’s a 2,15 hr lunch break where kids go home or stay in school to eat and do activities. Wednesday, there are no lessons.

As @Wallywobbles says the whole thing is structured around facilitating the working day for parents. It’s possible for very young children to be dropped off at 07h50 and not picked up until 18h30 by virtue of the early morning, lunch in school and after school garderie. The school do try to discourage this for the 3-4 yr olds but working parents do it. Everyone says it’s too much but …. shrug what can you do when the working day is so long? There’s an army of affordable nannies here though - often they pick the kids up at regular time than stay with them at home until parents get back from work. No school on Wednesday - that’s when activities happen including at school. Teachers are only there for teaching btw - all morning, lunchtime, afterschool and Wednesday activities are organised in school by associations or the Marie.

Secondary - school starts at 08h and can run as late as 18h30 except on Wednesday when they finish at lunchtime. French students study 10-12 subjects all the way through to the Bac so the workload is heavy. Neither the school I work in nor my kids lycée has a lunch hour - they just made sure they have at least 1 sequence free to eat around mid day.

Holidays - 2 weeks in October, Christmas, February, April then 7-8 weeks over summer. It’s a lot - 16 weeks a year.