AIBU to wonder whether emotionally abusive partners act deliberately or instinctively?

[Holdinguphalfthesky]

So many threads seem to be about men who pose as lovely, loving partners only to turn out to be cuckoos, cocklodgers, hobosexuals, and other forms of manipulative and emotionally abusive pieces of work. On a current one (and on others) a poster has said that such men generally keep up the attractive veneer for about 2 years, so that they can get properly installed into their target’s home and life, where they end up draining her of money, joy, energy, peace of mind, and any contentment she had.

What I am now wondering is if this behaviour is actually calculated and planned, or if it’s more subconscious? Does anyone know?

I also have an emotionally abusive ex who is an arch manipulator and I wonder equally whether his behaviour is planned or instinctive.

Oh, they know OP ❤

I don't think they know... In the sense they truly believe they are the victim, they did no wrong, all they wanted was x, y, z. I think the behaviour is so deeply ingrained in them that they know no better. My ex could tell the socially acceptable answer, but would then explain why that was wrong and why he was right. And he believed that everyone else was warped. He was adamant he hadn't changed at all over the course of the relationship, my actions had simply caused him to decide he had never loved me. Wasn't his fault. They are in cloud cuckoo land.

I expect it depends on the person.

Reason 101 not to move your new squeeze into your children's home within a short time of meeting him.

This 100% people are usually unaware they are abusive

I can give you a different perspective I've been called abusive multiple times by multiple different people but I still genuinely don't think i am. So take that as you will 🤷‍♀️

@BookArt55 Yes, humans are good at justifying stuff to themselves; behaviour that is wrong in one situation genuinely isn't in all. Put those two together... Plus we genuinely often know how we should behave, but are weak humans.

I must admit I've always wondered how many MNetters posting about abusive relationships, have also been abusive at times.

Even in retaliation.

It depends.

There are abusers who are utterly, cynically calculating about it.

There are others who do it because its the emotional “template” they observed growing up in the dynamic of their parents. There are many who are mentally unwell and are using their partner as a punchbag (physically or mentally).

My ex husband was abusive to me because he suffered severe depression and alcohol addiction. I left because I wasn’t prepared to live with it. But from the vantage point of being many years separated I do now see it in a different way than I think I would if I had thought he was doing it out of pure anger or control.

There’s never an excuse for abuse and nothing justifies it but context does shed some light.

I think it is normally instinctive. Most people are on their 'best behaviour' a bit in the first couple of years - also, I think abusers can often be very black and white thinkers and so they go from thinking their victim is amazing to finding constant fault in them - so they didn't hide their disdain/dislike originally, it changed over time. They also gradually push boundaries over time and it's like any other transgression, the more you do it the less you think about it, and things build up incrementally. If you regularly scream in someone's face the first time you slap them won't feel such a big step to you.

I think very few people are actually capable of carrying out a machiavellian masterplan, and abusers are rarely as clever or cunning as they seem to their terrified victims.

I think its genuinely hard to know if you are or aren't im not physically abusive and im not sexually abusive but my mouth definitely gets me in trouble (I do have bpd) so when people treat me a certain way I react. And in my head I'm thinking well if you hadn't done that then I wouldn't of reacted like that but then that does sound abusive as its that line you made me do it. If any of this makes sense.

It does make perfect sense.

Shouting at someone is abusive and yet it's something that the vast majority of us will have done, at one time or another.

I think there’s a difference between acting in anger and being manipulative though. In genuine anger, anyone might shout. But it’s not as common to be so blatant as to refuse to compromise with someone but then start blaming them and lying about what has happened to create a different picture (as in those cases where the manipulative person says things to twist it round or make the other person seem unreasonable or irrational).

I’ve thought about this a lot as my ex was (and is) emotionally abusive and manipulative. The conclusion I’ve come to is that while they have some recognition that they don’t always behave well, at a deep level they have a victim narrative, a sense of entitlement/selfishness and a lack of either willingness or ability to self-reflect that means their view of themselves will always boil down to “I’m not as bad as they say I am.”

I think they are often deluded about the reasons they do things. I think my ex was genuinely very attracted to me at first, however I believe it was because he had created an image in his head of how being with me would benefit him. For example, I had professional skills that could benefit his business, I come from a “higher class” family than his and he is obsessed with status, I am generally pretty easygoing and flexible, I am good with money whereas he is not etc etc.

However over time, the fact that he didn’t absorb all of my qualities by osmosis, or I wasn’t just prepare to give my life over to serving him became a source of frustration and resentment for him and he started being manipulative and abusive to try to get what he wanted from me, or devaluing the qualities he once was attracted to but that now made him feel “not good enough”.

Looking at his new girlfriend, I can see that she has qualtties that would be attractive to him because they would solve some of the problems he had with me (eg she works for him, so he immediately has a measure of control over her).

I don't think this is a nominal question. I think it's particularly complex, and usually relates to the abuser having some form of personality disorder (usually NPD). I'm not suggesting this is an excuse for their behaviour, but it is a reason to explain some of it. Its easier for victims of the abuse (myself included) to assume they did and do everything with the sheer intention to cause pain and upset etc, and is most times a great survival skill to do this as sometimes trying to understand an abusers behaviour leans more towards trying to justify it to yourself. I did that for years and will never be doing it again.

That being said, from an objective point of view, looking at this on a biological and genetic human level, I do not believe that for every abuser, every single thing they do is done with malicious intent. Particularly for NPD, they are always deeply, deeply insecure, and their facade of grandiose is an unhealthy survival strategy to cope with this. Another common factor is trauma during childhood, or even just inconsistent/poor parenting. This can leave them with a lack of identity, lack of security and emotional attachment. This all builds up to them involuntarily creating this illusion that they are greater than everybody else. They do things that are harmful to others, while genuinely believing that they are doing what is right by the person, because they are genuinely so delusional that they cannot see it any other way.

However, the key to my point is that even when abusers who act abusively think theyre doing the right thing or whatever, they still know it is causing harm to the other person. They still know they are making their life a living hell. They just do not care whatsoever. To them, you dont really matter. You may as well be a dog to them, as youre just expected to jump through their hoops and be grateful to have them. And if you misbehave, you get punished and its deserved. Its disgusting.

I know from experience from having a lot of talks and arguments with my ex who was and still is extremely narcisstic. I think he knew what he was doing was wrong a lot of the time, but could not get past that he would not accept that certain (normal) behaviour (exhibited by me) was beneath him, and to him, this justified his actions. To any sane person, it definitely did not. Did he still know that he was deeply upsetting and depressing me? Yes. Did he care? No.

On the flip side, I think a lot of people who are abusive (including those without personality disorders), know exactly what they are doing. I genuinely believe that they are just so angry, self-absorbed and vile that they quite enjoy having a puppet as a partner. It is often times learnt behavior by their parents/relatives, and struggle to be any different because of this. I think this can (and more often than not) does overlap with personality disorders, which is why its exhausting to try and figure out whether they do it with intent or not. I believe that most of the time its a complex mix of both.

Ultimately I think all abusers know what they are doing is wrong, but a lot of them most of the time genuinely dont recognise what they are doing as abusive due to their own delusion, caused by an array of complex factors. When they do know its abusive, they do not care, or else they wouldnt be abusing you.

Please note I was in no way trying to justify abusive behaviour by anybody here, and those that are abusive hold the responsibility to get help for it - but they won't, because they don't think theyre in the wrong.

Side note to add: a lot of talk about victims of abuse being abusive in retaliation. This happens a lot, and does not inherently make them an abuser, too. Reactive abuse is just that, a reaction. You poke a bear, its going to react. It is ultimately a form of self-defence.
It is so deeply different than someone who is so mentally fucked up that they actively abuse somebody due to a PD, trauma, whatever fucking reason. Please do not try to bunch the two together.