why is working in a kitchen so toxic?

[GenieGenealogy]

My son who is 17 has a part time job in a pub kitchen. He has been there a year, started as a KP washing dishes and now does starters/desserts. This is a a pub which is part of a big chain and so although he'd tell you he's a "chef" he's mainly heating up pre-made food or plating desserts.

Anyway. He is desperately looking for a new job as some of the members of staff are so unpleasant to him. They seem to have the attitude that working in a kitchen is tough and you have to be prepared to put up with being sworn at as routine. That because it's a kitchen and a pressured environment, it's to be expected that people are rude. This is a pub chain we're talking about, not a 3 star Michelin place.

There are lots of places which I'd imagine would be equally stressful to work - an A&E department, air traffic control, a 999 call centre etc but you don't expect to be routinely sworn at working any of those places. Why are kitchens so toxic?

YANBU. My husband is front of house manager for a upmarket restaurant chain. The chefs are toxic, he’s managed lots of restaurants and every kitchen team has always been the same. It’s bizarre.

I work in the NHS- it’s very demanding! We would never behave the way chefs deem appropriate in a work environment.

They have trouble recruiting staff to work in the kitchen. I wonder why.

You will find this in a vast majority of kitchens. I trained as a chef and ran a 100 cover restaurant. My BIL was also a trained butcher and chef. Is say that most of the chefs/cooks I’ve worked with show adhd/narc traits . Drug usage and addiction is also rife I myself have adhd and bipolar and I fell into the career as I was useless in the morning and preferred working the late shift. Both myself and my BIL had cocaine issues ( I’m clean and have been for years, he’s still in it). I thrived on the high energy, dynamic nature of the workload. Lots of pressure and every day was different even when you were churning out the same menu . It was proper cooking from scratch though, not plastic bags and microwaves. My ex BIL is incredibly narcissistic and very much a performative cook. If he didn’t get the right level of praise , even at home cooking a toastie, he would swear, stomp and sulk and create a terrible atmosphere. Thankfully I’m not like that but I do enjoy people praising my food.

you can also find similar thins in some personal trainers at gyms. Very common for a similar mind set and at the gym I went to 4/7 of the evening session personal trainers clearly had adhd/bipolar and self medicated with drugs.

It’s always been culturally ok to be a dick in a kitchen, which has set up a vicious cycle of people who are dicks going to work in kitchens and letting their dickishness flag fly high. The same team in a different environment would not behave the same way because they would not be allowed to behave the same way.

Young lad starts as KP and is bullied.
Bullies back.
Moves up the ranks.
Now he’s a chef.
He’s been rewarded for being a dick all his career.
He continues being a dick.

That plus drugs, long hours, crotch rot, on your feet, shit food, no windows, hot environments where people burn and cut themselves a lot and a small element of people who wouldn’t get a job anywhere else. (Sometimes that’s really positive, there’s a cafe near us staffed by people with learning disabilities which is a beautiful place; equally the only time I’ve ever feared for my life was in a hotel storeroom where a very big man with LDs went absolutely off at me for taking some teaspoons for service.)

DS is undecided what he wants to do for a career but is definitely not considering catering after experiencing the culture. So you're probably right that it's a vicious circle of the nice, not sweary and aggressive people leaving to do other work and the nasty ones remaining.

Gordon Ramsey has a lot to answer for.

It’s been said in the thread already, but bad temper and bad treatment comes from heat, unsociable hours, pressure, danger (knives, flames etc), stress (don’t fuck it up, bring it all together on time) etc. It’s not a job for the ponderous or the unskilled.

I really respect chefs. They are so good at what they do. But what a difficult working life!

My uncle is a chef and trained with Gordon, he has nothing but good things to say! He was very tough in that he had v high standards but fair and apparently a lot nicer to staff than how TV portrayed him!!

I read Sally Abé's book recently and she spoke well of Gordon Ramsay.

I agree with @GreenGodiva , IME many chefs are on the narcissistic spectrum.

I’ve often wondered this. I can’t understand why such extreme behaviour and language go with working in a kitchen or why would anyone want the job tbh. I’ve never worked in one so maybe not best placed to answer, but I do know people who have and they’ve left too.
anyone’s work can be stressful. Anyone could give an example of high stress at their work and honestly at some point, I’m sure most of us have encountered rude and unpleasant colleagues and situations but this theme does seem to go hand in hand in your sons type of employment

He took the job working in a kitchen as a KP because as a 16 year old with no experience it was pretty much all he could get, and they wanted people to work weekends/evenings which suits around school. The wages are OK, he gets a share of tips and has been given lots of training and transferrable skills. He doesn't mind the work but it's the atmosphere and the attitude of the older male staff who have worked in a kitchen their whole careers. Agree though that it seems accepted in a kitchen in a way it wouldn't be in any other sector which is equally or a lot more stressful.

Also here to say that the two people o know who worked for GR adored him!

I’ve waited tables in a lot of restaurants across the world and some are much better than others. I think it’s something that excellent system design from thw ground up would help in a lot of places - to reduce stress not just go ‘this is how it is’

Have you read Kitchen Confidential? Very toxic work environment

I worked in a place with a kitchen many years ago and it was just like this. Usually the main chef/head chef was the worst - it was generally heat of the moment comments due to the stress of making sure everything was ready at the same time, I suppose. I even saw plates being thrown out the back door! Very intimidating for a young person - but we used to laugh or say things back. After the shift ended, or the rush was over, they'd calm down straight away as though it never happened.

I'm sure DS makes mistakes. Because he is 17 and learning and has no formal cooking training at all. I can see why from the perspective of a trained chef with 30 years experience, having a no-clue teen in the kitchen is not fun. But it doesn't excuse the swearing and rudeness. We have told DS just to say "stop swearing" or "stop being rude to me" but he's 17 and these are much older men. He is actively looking for a new job and will have no qualms in saying the atmosphere in the kitchen is why he is leaving.

Apologies to Gordon. He was the first shouty/sweary chef I thought about, although accept it's probably all an act for the cameras.

I suspect a lot of it is down to the public not being prepared to pay a realistic amount for a meal out, waiting for an hour for it to arrive, prepared for in a calm environment. We all want "now", "fast" and "cheap" and that makes for high pressured environments, with extremely close margins and minimum staff levels; in turn often leading to addictions and adrenalin inducing drug use.

My DS had this problem - at his first place we encouraged him to walk away ! He has worked in lots of kitchens since with no problem. He now works for a University and has been there four years with no problems. Sometimes it’s the place - not all chefs are the same.

My son owns a restaurant and is the head chef, designs the menus. (High end food for where we live) attracts the odd celeb.

The kitchens are hot sweaty frenetic environments where orders are prepped and have to go out fast. It is also cramped when full of junior staff when in busy periods.

He keeps a tight ship, is laid back but stakes are a high as reviews can kill a business.

So if something goes wrong gets burnt, returned for no good reason tempers fray.

I do not think other none profit services are a reasonable comparator.

In my experience the chef sets the tone and unfortunately many of them are obnoxious dickheads. Part of the reason is that they notoriously down tools and walk out at the drop of a hat. It's not as easy to find capable chefs as people might think, so they hold all the cards and they know it. Thus the owner/manager of the establishment lets them get away with blue murder.

Husband works with GR. I don’t know anyone that’s worked with him that has a bad word to say about him.