Depressed trying to parent with DH

[In2thedark]

I am having a really difficult time parenting with my DH and could use some outside perspective.

I feel like he undermines me a lot and we just aren't on the same page about a lot of things. Some examples:
• I try to teach DS good manners such as table manners, DH will sit on his phone, doesn't care about us all eating together, leaves all the dishes on the table afterwards despite me trying to teach DS some responsibility to tidy up after yourself
•He tends to act more as a friend than a parent a lot of the time. He can't be bothered with the arguing over getting dressed or whatever it is so just let's things go. I feel our DS is starting to get more difficult and it's just not helpful to let him call all the shots.
•Constantly asks DS if he wants mum or dad to do certain things, let's him choose things that you children should not be choosing, asks him who's car we are going in for the day even if we have already chosen between based on petrol or whatever it is. He will have a tantrum if it's not his choice and DH goes along with it to appease the tantrum.
•he has made comments before when I've had to tell DS off that mum is grumpy, or roll his eyes or mock the way I've told him off. It makes me feel really embarrassed and that I'm always the bad guy.
•he repeatedly tells DS not to go to mum for a cuddle, help, to play, whatever it is. Last night I was enjoying a cuddle before bed and he tells him to sit on the couch instead, which DS did, then proceeded to lift him into his own lap instead. I'm aware this sounds so petty but experiencing it repeatedly is horrible and I don't understand it. I've asked him about it before and he said it's to give me a break which on the surface sounds nice but I've asked him to stop as I'm enjoying spending time with my son but he still does it. Even things like playing a nice game, he will come into the room all singing all dancing to get him to do a different game, or say what I'm doing is boring. Whatever I do or say with DS he has to be louder and more exciting.
•Easter Sunday DS wasn't allowed to get his eggs because DH was working. I get that he doesn't want to miss out on things but he's putting his own feelings above DS. DS couldn't understand why he wasn't allowed them until today. Other times he has been working he makes such a big fuss if I take DS somewhere for the day because he wants to be there too. Does he want us to stay home bored?
• he doesn't really back me up around his parents, and will let them do things we've both previously agreed we aren't happy with just to avoid confrontation. He would rather I was unhappy with something that upset his mum, and tells me to sort it with his mum myself if I have a problem

I will also say that I think DH is hugely insecure for reasons I'm not sure of,.and I do think this could be why he behaves like this. He seems worried that DS won't like him, he wants to be his best buddy, and will do everything possible to make him happy at all times even when sometimes you need to be the parent. I feel like the atmosphere in the house is so high energy, like there's a frantic desperation around DS liking him. Simple things like me saying to DS I love you, you're such a clever boy - DH will literally talk straight after me saying the exact same thing but more gushy, eg dad loves you too you know, come and see dad, dad loves you, I'm so proud, etc. It's actually quite weird and sounds so unnatural. When DS is away to bed DH seems to massively calm down and almost back to normal.

I hate writing all this out because I think I sound really horrible. It used to make me really annoyed but I just feel so sad recently. I dont think DS is getting a good upbringing at times. DH is raising a best friend instead of a responsible adult. I've given up on a lot of things that matter to me because what is the point? Also, I've had a lot of therapy when DS was born to address anxiety so I'm fairly sure that I'm being objective around all of this and work very hard not to let any anxiety affect how I'm feeling.

He is 100 percent in " competition" with you for DS affection. All the undermining, all the performance parenting, the need to control, all stems from a deep insecurity on his part.
How was his relationship with his own father?
Unless your DH gets some therapy to unpack and check this behaviour this whole dynamic will continue to be very unhealthy for all of you. Particularly DS .

I really feel for you OP.
As PP stated you sound very thoughtful and balanced . I think you need to insist on him getting help before hardcore resentment sets in and there's no way back.

No I really don't think he's autistic. I can see why you would suggest that, as a lot of things he says sound very rehearsed and what he thinks he "should" say to DS to express his love. Even with me he will say some phrases all the time and I'm thinking why are you saying that it just sounds weird? I really do think it's insecurity and he's doing whatever he can to feel loved and approved of.

It sounds like you'd benefit from couples counselling to help you both get on the same page. I know I'm going against the grain here but I don't think you're DH is doing anything malicious. Joining in when you praise him is normal, DH and I would praise together. You don't like him giving your DS choices (which I think is fine) but then you're also not happy that the Easter egg hunt was put on hold when DS wanted to do it. I don't think the cuddle thing is all that bad, I wouldn't be bothered if DH took DC from me for a cuddle, we get plenty of other opportunities to spend time together. Are you SAHM? If you are and have a lot more time with DS, it's understandable DH would want to be spending time with DS when he's at home. It's not fair that dH doesn't like you doing things when he's at work. Couples counselling could help you both feel heard and understand each other's feelings and motivation for the behaviours.

I'm not really sure how their relationship was. I think they argued a lot and he moved out to live with his gran for a while. They seem close now as far as I can see. Thanks for your reply x

My ex was very similar, I thought it stemmed from his own childhood at first (one absent parent, one abusive/neglectful parent). As if he was trying to make sure I didn’t mistreat our DC in the same way. I would say they are very “enmeshed”.
He was also terrified that DC wouldn’t love him and so never says no to them or puts in any rules or boundaries. Lately I have been looking at Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria as he experiences huge rage if he perceives any slight to himself or DC.
Counselling for us didn’t work, thinking about his childhood was too painful for him so he refused to talk about it. Also he refuses to recognise the RSD 95% of the time so counselling isn’t going help with that anyway.

I left, mainly because he became more abusive and controlling towards me, but also because I wanted to show my child there was another way to live, where healthy boundaries and not living on eggshells (trying to avoid an argument) were the norm. 6 years later he hasn’t changed and probably never will, but DC is starting to realise that his way may not be the “best”. And I have a lovely, relaxing home now and can parent DC with boundaries and without being undermined.

Yes I can't totally see your side of this, and do wonder at times if I'm being unreasonable (hence the post). I agree choices for kids are ok, but when it becomes DS having a tantrum because dad isn't wearing the shoes he wants him to wear and he changes them to stop the tantrum, I don't know if that's ok? Also agree that jointly praising, showing affection etc is normal and lovely. I think the difference with us is that it feels very competitive. He can't let me have a nice moment with our son without interrupting and doing it bigger and better. If I see them having a nice bonding moment I leave them to it, even take a sly photo to show him. I don't get the same in return.
I would love to try joint counseling but part of me feels like if things have got that bad then is there really any coming back from it? I just want the best for my DS though and would definitely try it if DH would agree.

Aw this is quite worrying OP, I really feel for you. You say DS is starting to get quite difficult at times -I think it’s really important your husband addresses these issues now as they could lead to DS becoming quite challenging when he’s older and playing you off against each other as it were.
I think it’s quite troubling to children to pick up an obvious discord between parents.
It’s so unfair on you too - you can’t even go for a fun day trip if dad can’t come?

The issue is whether H will take anything on board and get some help, or double down and be defensive. I would expect he’ll find it hard to accept initially he is actually not being a good parent. Could you get any time just the two of you, and address what’s going on really clearly? I think it will be really hard but you owe it to you and DS

Meant to add, no I'm not SAHM. We both work part time so he's definitely not missing out on quality time with DS.

I would 100% leave if this was me. I couldn’t stand this or how it was bound to affect my child.

Letting him have choice over shoes is one of them things that is a difference in opinion and no one is right or wrong. I'm a social worker, I've delivered parenting courses and we always encourage giving children choice as this promotes autonomy and independence and reduces tantrums but we would not be telling parents they are wrong if they weren't giving choices on shoes. We also encourage parents being on the same page and having consistent routines and boundaries, this is very important, not having that can cause confusion and anxiety for the DC. It's definitely worth a try with counselling, it sounds like you both love you're DS and want what is best for him, you just have different ideas on what that looks like.

Thank you I really appreciate your views. I do agree with you, and DS is always given choices for the reasons you said. He chooses what to wear, which fork to use , etc. What I meant was choosing his dads shoes for him. DS wanted Dad to wear a pair for shoes that weren't appropriate for the weather and it wasn't what dad wanted to wear. Choosing whether mum or dad drives, again I'm not sure we should be letting DS decide that when there's a good reason for the choice eg my car had no petrol but we ended up taking mine meaning I had to stop for petrol which I didn't budget for.

Really difficult. Have you talked to him about consistency and you being a team? And how confusing this is going to be for your DS?

DH and I have quite different parenting styles and it is quite connected to our own PO personalities (for want of a better word). We also had me as SAHM / default parent for 10 years. DHs dad was quite an angry, touchy person and not at all secure in his parenting and while DH isn’t angry, he can be over sensitive about any perceived rejection or criticism - even when it’s coming from a child who really doesnt mean any harm 🙄.

OP this sounds exhausting. I feel so angry on your behalf reading it. You asked what parts sound the worst to people? I would say the eye rolling and undermining, calling you grumpy, intervening when you and DS are bonding, etc. It’s showing contempt for you. He’s teaching you DS contempt for you. It’s pretty abusive I would say.

You sound unendingly patient and thoughtful.

The refusal by your DH to research parenting information would make my blood boil. Why does he think there’s nothing to learn? It sounds arrogant and dismissive of your knowledge.

Yes I can imagine it's hard to discuss when he doesn't have that insight himself. Could you maybe just show curiosity and ask him what it felt like for him to be sidelined when your DC was little, maybe empathise a bit with how hard that must have been before criticising how it's showing up? I don't think his behaviour is excusable and he should realise it's not good for your DS or your relationship but it might help him to feel like his feelings are valid and normal even if the way he's acting on them isn't and discussing it that way might help him acknowledge that therapy might help if it's related to anything from his past (in my case it was down to parents showing conditional love and high expectations of performance so being the less favoured parent felt like I'd failed and made me panic I had "lost" my child).

I’m a bit more robust so I very rarely experienced rejection as personal - sometimes they prefer the other parent and that’s all there is to it 🤷‍♀️.

has your DH got any insight into his behaviour or what might be driving it? I had quite a lot of stormy discussions with DH about it. I learned to back off a bit on being super-parent, he tried not to react out of defensiveness (though that can take a lot to unpick).

The constant undermining and saying negative things about you is a form of parental estrangement. He's trying to weaken and sabotage the parental bond between you and your son so he can be the favorite. This can be really damaging to your son.

If your marriage fails, he'll likely step up to parental alienation.

Spend lots of time with your son and push back when your husband says negative things about you or if he tries gaslighting, saying things that didn't really happen.

I'm not grumpy, John, why would you say that?

Continue to be affectionate. Stay calm. Be there and reliable.

You can seek out a family therapist who is experienced with parental alienation. I don't believe your family fits that yet, but your husband is definitely trying to sabotage your parental bond and that's never healthy. I think your husband needs individual therapy to stop these behaviours. They're not in your son's best interests.

I wouldn't be wearing crocs in bad weather because me DS said so, equally I wouldn't mind if another parent did, as long as the DC didn't have complete control over everything, they do need to learn that they can't have control over what others do. There is also something in picking your battles. I hope it gets better for you all.

I think marriage councilling with parenting a key theme is what you need.

Yes, son should have had the eggs the day before! Your husband is horrible. Stand your ground and strengthen your spine - your son is going to need at least one parent he can rely on.

@outerspacepotato describes the problem really well.

The only thing I’d add is to point out that identifying a root cause for a behaviour, insecurity or low self esteem here in your opinion, does not excuse that behaviour or make it any less damaging. I think I’ve read low self esteem is also a contributory factor in narcissism.

I think your DH is doing great harm and will be exceptionally hard to influence or correct You really do need outside help with it.