AIBU to agree with Starmer on the doctors' strike?

[Magicisuponus]

AIBU to agree with Keir Starmer regarding the doctors strike?
I get that everyone feels poorer due to the economic climate but for the doctors to strike yet again when everyone is feeling it, NHS waiting lists are huge and doctors are really not the worst hit profession - they have already had pay rises over the past few years.
I’m not sympathetic to the doctors cause in this instance and agree with Starmers decision to put his foot down…

I am losing sympathy a bit.

I completely agree with their points about training posts going to overseas doctors.

But no one's pay has kept pace with inflation since 2008 - that was the pinnacle after years of growth pre financial crisis! For most of us pay has devalued. I'm in the sort of higher paid financial occupation that doctors seem to think have done better, and wages have not kept pace with cpi let alone rpi, not even close, since 2008 (I've checked). In addition for those of us without DB schemes, pensions have been pretty crap in that time too.

This country is relatively poorer than it was and doctors have done better than most.

Starmer refusing to fund training places as a result will directly negatively impact patients. He's made a terrible decision, interesting to know where wonder boy Wes is in all this.

Wes made the snowball and Starmer threw it.

Yep, I think it feels a bit tone deaf and manipulative. I do think they're right about the training issue too though but wonder how we can tie down staff that we have trained at a huge cost to stay in the NHS and not emigrate or work in the private sector.

The decision to take away the extra training spaces affects the strikers and non strikers. They could reduce the working week to 37 hours which would be better for all pay overtime if they stay late as they do in Australia.

I share his lack of sympathy but I don’t see how removing training places is remotely helpful.

Relevant, established thread here.

Context.

Yes, removal training places also feels wrong but the sentiment of not giving into their demands, agree with.

Not sure what would be the solutions - a bit like parenting : ‘You’ve misbehaved so we are not going swimming - oh shoot, now I’m stuck with them inside’ 😅

How they can tie staff down?! Are you joking?!
The reason doctors are leaving is because the jobs in other country are FAR superior- they are treated better and have better opportunities.

Things that would be good to change:

Improving working conditions. Many doctors have to beg and pled even for their own wedding day off.
Increasing training places so that rotas are fully staffed?
Letting doctors chose where they want to work, rather than being issued training places the other side of the country to where their family and friends and support networks are.
Increasing training numbers so that they can do further training in speciality they are passionate about.
More money to employ consultants and GPs, so they they have a job at the end of years of training.

Even while at medical school, medical student have to pay their own fees for the first 4 years (£9k/yr), where no other health care professional does. Then post graduation, they have to pay thousands for their professional exams. Plus playing GMC and indemnity costs every year.
All for what? Patients verbally abusing them, working overtime for free most days, more and more work but less pay, no guarantee of a job.

Phew rant over, byeeeeee x

I’m losing sympathy for the striking doctors. There was a decade of 1% and 0% pay rises for teachers!
Out of the public sector employees resident doctors have been offered a decent package of late.
I’m not sure I agree with the training posts being removed as surely this is detrimental to patients.
I really feel for any patient needing care over the next 10 days and for the hospital staff who will be trying to patch the gaps in care.

No, they are leaving because they can. It costs the country a quarter of a million pounds to train a doctor and half a million to train a senior doctor. We have far more applicants than places. We absolutely contractually should force them to work sufficient time in the NHS to repay that public investment.

The fact that other countries offer superior conditions is irrelevant. There will always be countries and private practices looking to poach NHS staff. Get the British public to pay for their training and lure the doctors over with better T&C's. We need to prevent this asap.

Give it a couple of months and Starmer will give them what they want. It's what Labour Governments do. This one already has twice. No wonder they keep coming back.

Absolutely no reason why they should choose to train here though is there? They hold the power here not Sir K. If people are made to commit to the NHS they will train overseas. Many already do

How can you force them to stay and work in the NHS when there aren’t enough jobs to go around?

ETA Last summer there were 30,000 applicants for around 10,000 jobs, although some of those were doctors applying from abroad.

Absolutely they can apply abroad. I imagine we would still fill all our places though as medicine is currently massively oversubscribed. Interestingly international places are the most oversubscribed so it would suggest that those that don't get any subsidy from the government and can choose to train anywhere in the world still choose the UK.

All the doctors had to do to secure the training places was to drop their pay demands. That’s all. Their greed caused it. Their members will suffer as a result.

Since visa restrictions have been removed a large percentage of these will be from international candidates.

I thought the resident doctors wanted jobs though. They clearly WANT to stay here but there aren’t enough jobs.

Ridiculous that we allow student doctors and nurses to work for nothing and then no jobs at the end of it, they either need to stop training as many or actually have jobs available for them.

The bma didn’t even put the suggested package to the vote! Disgraceful to not even see what the members actually thought. They are a disgrace (the bma)

Yes, I do. They've had good payrises to catch up and are offered a few percent now which is what everyone else gets (if they are lucky). We can't afford to give big payrises and train a load of new doctors. I had every sympathy with them a couple of years ago but now they are taking the piss.

YABU- I will say I’m a doctor (though not a resident) and I genuinely believe that whatever side of the argument you are on, I don’t know why you’d think this response is the right one. Please explain it to me- how does cutting training places help anything at all? The real losers are current medical students and the NHS as a whole. If you are trying to “force” the strike to be called off, this was one of the most self-defeating way to do it. It’s just posturing to look strong and make people think they are “sticking it” to the recalcitrant Dr’s, whilst doing nothing of the sort and halting the correction to systemic problem within the UK medical training system at the same time.

Let’s face it, all this means is either a) there are not going to be training posts for UK medical graduates- they will be forced into going abroad to complete training, going into locum work (as either appointment for training or service- the former is expensive for the NHS and uncertain for the Dr, so worst of both worlds for all parties) or leaving the profession. How exactly this threat helps the NHS is beyond me. Alternatively, option B)if there are shortages of UK graduates leading unfilled training posts, we’ll just continue to “import” junior doctors from abroad- which is not great for a number of reasons- firstly, we are taking another countries graduates (often countries who need their doctors as they can ill-afford to train them to have them leave). Secondly, whilst many are very talented and hard-working, some do need extra training to work effectively within our system and there can be barriers which take time to work through. Not all “hit the ground running”. Thirdly, many foreign trainees will stay in the Uk, but a not insignificant number will only stay until they have completed royal college examinations or get to consultant level (or sometimes do a year or so). and then leave to go home or for more lucrative posts abroad-taking all their experience and knowledge with them. There is a reason we have consultant shortages in a number of specialties- this is only one part of that puzzle, but it is an issue.

I totally agree with this it's a fucking ridiculous decision. It's like a child snatching his toys away because he doesn't get his own way. It's disgraceful.

But I also entirely agree with him taking a stance. He needs to do something to stop the strikes but this is not the answer.

Young medics are being influenced by extremists, it's not just a problem because of the strikes, it much much deeper than that. The mess the unions are creating is causing unsettlement throughout the NHS. Senior, outstanding calibre people don't want to work for the NHS anymore. We have some outstanding people at non-exec level who could help to shape the future of our NHS but they won't touch them with a barge pole because of the toxic environment being created by the resident/junior doctors.

I personally think that removing the unions from negotiations would be a huge starting point...