AIBU to question whether my Year 7 still needs phonics?

[Passmethecheese]

Hi so there is a long back history but I won’t go to far in to it unless I have to expand later on.
for multiple reasons DD ( year 7 ) was a late reader.
she has never grasped phonics and it was a huge struggle for many years. Year 4 she was reading at reception level and then something changed.
She started reading and progressed very fast to being a “ free reader “ in year 6.
the issue is she still would not pass a year 2 phonics screening !
her year 6 teacher was adamant in keeping phonics going. That although she could read well that without phonics the gap would appear again when readinf more complex texts.
so we continued with phonics but to be honest not getting anywhere apart from stress.
Sats she scored 107 scaled score for reading.
She now attends a small Sen school that she doesn’t quite match the cohort for but was the best choice we had. It follows full mainstream curriculum and is for those academically able.
they assessed them at the start of year 7 and again now towards the end of year 7.
they have reading interventions but said they didn’t feel the need to stress DD with phonics intervention when her scores showed that although there is issues with her phonics. Her reading, speed, accuracy and comprehension was not affected.
she has read in year 7 and got “ secured “ in end of topic assements for - private peaceful and Romeo and Juliet.
she doesn’t use a reader in any lessons and reads independently.
reading plus ( not sure that relevant ) but is on the level of year 8.
I am conflicted if I should still push for phonics intervention when her teacher last year was adamant you could not be actual free reader without phonics.
should I still request her to be put in to phonics intervention ?

I am terribly sorry but both you and the teacher must realise that there are thousands of people currently working in nursing profession in the UK who have never been taught phonics and thousands more international students doing science degrees without much trouble.
I have only had cursory phonics at school. More in keeping with "and now we are going to read. By the way when you see letters "sch" it pronounces as..." I've since completed two degrees, clinical research and work in the NHS and not once have I killed someone. Oh, I also have A levels in chemistry.
This sort of regressive testing is stressful and unnecessary and is a tick boxing exercise for the school. Nothing to do with actual learning needs of a student.

I will also say. School thought I was stupid and gave me confidence issues. When I went and did a degree I was suddenly top of the year and haven’t looked back. I just didn’t fit into the boxes.

They may never have been taught phonics but they are almost certainly subconsciously using them, to break a word down into its component parts.
An inability to use phonics makes it extremely difficult to read words you haven't come across before, which needs decoding using phonics.

You're probably correct you didn't do phonics. My DD aged 28 never did phonics ( at a mainstream UK primary) as it wasn't a thing. My 9 year old never did either as she taught herself to read somehow before school ( autistic, hyperlexic) and my other 9 year old worked with phonics in reception and it worked really well for her. I really believe it's not for everyone.

Yes so I’m slightly older than your daughter ( less than a decade older anyway 🤣)

@Passmethecheese Phonics has been in for around 15 years. It was pushed very hard and can help slower readers. However very bright dc can be bored to tears with it. It’s slow when a dc is picking up words very easily. Plus there’s a tendency to do whole class teaching so the SEN child who finds learning tricky is taught at the same pace as a dc heading to Oxbridge! Years ago dc were taught at their own speed in smaller groups. Phonics hasn’t produced a great uptick in reading proficiency and parents get obsessed with it. A good diet of books makes a big difference I think.

Phonics has been around for over 100 years.
All that phonics is, is learning how sounds are described in letters.

People either need to be explicitly taught this (which has been shown to have the overall best success rate) or they kind of work it out for themselves by being taught so many words they kind of get the rules, or ....

... the alternative is you can't pronounce words you've not seen written before.

Maybe that matters maybe it doesn't.

I can make plausible attempts at eg amlodopine because I know phonics. It may not be completely right due to the fact that different sounds can have the same spellings, but it would be close enough for someone who does know the word to know what I meant.

Ultimately whether you like it or not, if you can break a new word down into components to help say it for the first time then you are using phonics.

Thank you this has put my mind at ease.
she has had such a chaotic school life and in my opinion has done amazingly considering even if not quite there is everything. I think the small setting will give her the chance to catch up on everything she missed ( less than 25 percent actually in the wxhiok building during primary ) I just want to make sure I’m doing what’s best for her and she has a fair chance at an education from now.

She can’t verbally break words down whether she is doing this subconsciously - who knows.

It seems to me phonics is a bit like times tables.
A very useful underpinning that it is worth everyone attempting to master.
But some people will struggle so much that they need to give up, find work arounds that are 'good enough' and spend the time more usefully elsewhere.

Nonsense. I could read before I started school and could never grasp phonics. I just didn't see the point when I could already read. School eventually gave up and let me free read when everyone else was doing phonics. Happily employed as an academic who has to deal with lots of big words on a daily basis.

Times tables is a whole different issue 🤣 we are not quitting that just yet !

@TeenToTwenties Well yes, an established method but the obsession in schools that it’s The Only Way is recent. It’s part of a toolkit but some dc don’t need vast amounts of it because they quickly recognise the syllables. However pronunciation of a word isn’t always produced by phonics. Having an idea of context and hearing the word helps too.

We eventually gave up for DD wrt instant recall.
For her GCSE we got her to spend the first 5 minutes of the non calculator paper writing out a times table grid that she could refer to for the rest of the exam.

Well of course if you are told the word ('hearing the word helps too') then you can read it, and having seen it once the DC with good memories will be able to read it again.
Context is all very well but:
He had an electric collection v He had an eccentric collection v He had an eclectic collection all have slightly different meanings.

Yes her instant recall in timestable is an issue.

maths is a weird one with her - naturally good at maths.’gets methods wuitr quickly when taught.

for example she will remember every method in terms of how to do algebra etc but her timetable and adding skills slow of all down. She will always get the right answer but it’s long process due to those issues.

for example she scored a scaled score of 98 in maths sats so not quite reaching 100 but she didnt actually finish either paper as she was slowed down by the issue with multiplying by recall etc
if she had finished both as in had much longer to complete she would of got a better scaled score.
so we keek working on this.

She's y7, so you could ask whether she will qualify for extra time for GCSEs. They need to formally assess in y9 and given her school presumably they will do this no issue, but they may also check now and start giving her the extra time. (Otherwise she may start to rush so she finishes which wouldn't be good if she doesn't need to.)

I didn't learn to read until year 7. I was 11 or 12. I just didn't get words. They didn't mean anything to me. Then in Year 7 things clicked ish. I struggled through school and life. I wasn't academic. I just found it all hard. Anyway as an adult I went back to college and uni. So.etimes words were still difficult. I would underline anything I didn't know look it up in the dictionary and find out the pronunciation and meaning. I got a 2:1. Anyhow, I now have kids. One was a fluent reader by 5 using phonics which were absolutely alien to me. The other is finding it much more difficult. Now I think that I have ADHD and dyslexia. My eldest is currently being investigated for ADHD and autism. The youngest we think has dyslexia but they won't investigate until next year.

What is her spelling like though?phonics doesn't just help reading!!

@Passmethecheese it won’t become an issue as long as she can read fluently and equally important be able to spell.

If you are still concerned subscribe to ‘Reading Eggs’, it’s a really fun way to learn phonics. There’s lots of fun repetition so it sinks in. Both my DC used this for at least a year each and they excelled with their reading/spelling.

Yes that was with extra time.
I think she will get extra time and a scribe for any exam including GCSE. It’s really hard I don’t often really understand where we are are and the one thing about the new school is they are quite vague haha even at parents evening etc
so I’m unsure of exactly how she is doing in maths etc since being at the new school.
we have never been able to pin point a learning disability or difficulty.
she had an OT assessment which the report seems to highlight issues but none that I know too much about and although the letter explains it there hasn’t been a conversation about how it may effect day to day life.
we get her parents report this week so will see what that says regards to the most recent assements. I just find if all so hard to understand.
like I know her SATS score indicate that she may not get the best GCSE results but then could that change if she is accessing education more often ( less than 25 percent of the whole of primary )
i just believe that the ability is there and I really hope we can give her the best chance without pressuring and being overly pushy.

@PuttingOutFirewithGasoline ”Interestingly it's becoming very well known that actually phonics is a barrier to reading for many kids and there is an almost cult like devotion to it by many teachers.”

Completely agree! As a teacher, so many schools and teachers would rather persist with phonics rather than accept <5 children per class might need a different approach. The phonics screening is part of the problem as it assesses reading by phonics rather than just reading. Why is that the goal? Surely we want all children to read, and sure, phonics is a great tool for that but lots of children like poor OP’s daughter has had her time wasted for years!

Spelling is another interesting one !

she is behind on spelling but she didn’t start writing or learning spelling until at least year 4/5 and even then was a bit vague. She had never been able to write a word until year 5. By the end of year 6 she was writing small amounts and had gone from not having and first 100 Frequency words to having all of the first 200 in year 6.
this has continued to improve and although spelling is behind her reading it is making amazing progress - she has now been able to write short stories and new articles etc with very few spelling mistakes.

This book made a huge difference for my daughter aged about 13… It got her reading teenager books for pleasure. She's still not the best reader but succeeds well in a job that involves reading complex document daily. I sometimes think people forget that reading skills can continue improving as an adult at work.

Death by phonics is real for many kids. I like a hybrid approach to teaching reading, but this emphasis on synthetic phonics or you are failing is ridiculous. It could be cynically argued that had Ruth Miskin not been in her position of associated power, we wouldn't be so 'all or nothing '.
How's dd's auditory memory OP? If she's good at remembering songs/jingles etc then practise singing /chanting times tables. Sometimes seeing it makes you question it more than just hearing it. I encourage my auditory times table learners to get into tests (where relevant!) and write down the tables they may stumble on (usually 6,7,8s) so they have a quick prompt and don't need to overthink it if needed.