Ethical work dilemma

[Jaffapedigree]

I work in a prison. I'm not an officer and have minimal (barely any) contact with the prisoners. Also don't carry protective equipment or have the specialist training in restraint that officers have. I wouldn't know what to do in a fight.

Talking to my colleagues, who are also not officers and the same rank/position as me, they are all saying that if they saw a colleague being assaulted, that they'd dive in and start fighting for the colleague. I've said that without equipment and training, I'm not doing that but I'll call for help on my radio (which we all carry). I'd be a liability in a fight with a violent man (male prison), and it would just result in me getting hurt as well as my colleague. It wouldn't help anyone.

I'm now being told I'm a coward.

Fwiw, I've spoken to the prisoners and have actually got on well with them, on the rare occasions I've been in contact, so they don't scare me. But I know what they're capable of. And the colleagues saying that they'd wade into a fight have all been females, so I have my doubts that they'd be effective against an angry, violent man (unlike female officers, who have training and carry defensive equipment).

I'd never not call for help, but I don't like being called a coward for recognising my limitations and getting others better trained and equipped to deal with dangerous situations. We have protocols and emergency procedures for such events, including fast response officers, who are designated to be first on scene, and panic buttons to summon them.

Let's see what they actually would do if something like that would happen. Easy to say such things

It's all hypothetical - how would they know how they'd react without having training? Fight flight freeze response might take over. Know the protocol inside out, and follow that. Don't get involved in these unhelpful conversations.

That's what I was thinking. I much suspect they'd freeze or call for help.

Your colleagues should not do this as you have no training to be able to intervene in this situation.
To be honest I’m surprised that in your non officer role this isn’t made absolutely clear to all of you. Plus I’m also shocked you have not all had training in how to de escalate and have strategies in place to remove yourselves if something did happen ( risk assessments etc)
I find it hard to believe they all think it’s ok.

The reality is that none of us really know how we’d react in this kind of emergency. They hope they’d be brave, you hope you’d be sensible.

We do have this made clear in training, and we have rusk assessments, plus personal safety training which includes physical self defence (enough to get away).

The bravado doesn't bother me, but the accusations of cowardice are not nice, obviously.

The thing is, that situation is not like a normal fight between equals. There are specific protocols and aims in restraining a prisoner. The likelihood is that without training you could make things worse for the colleague as well as put yourself at serious risk. Calling for help is absolutely the right thing to do.

Exactly this!!!

They should know how they would react in this kind of situation though, because their training will tell them how they should react.

And in this scenario it sounds like the appropriate response is to summon assistance and not engage (other than in self defence if necessary to get away).

They should not be engaging other than the protocol specifies.

All kinds of risks, dangers and liabilities otherwise

Your average woman would be an idiot to Interevene in a fight with a male prisoner, who is considerably stronger, probably with little conscience about hurting anyone, possible in possession of a shiv.

You're not a coward, the others are idiots!

Yeah, I'm guessing they wouldn't do it when it comes down to it. Easy to talk a big talk when it's hypothetical.

Sorry, how is this an "ethical" dilemma?

They say (nb: "say") they would wade in. You say you would not.

Until push comes to shove and an incident happens neither of you know how you will react in those circumstances. It's all a hypothetical conversation.

They might well freeze in such circumstances or you might experience an adrenaline rush and make a real difference.

I'd forget it or, more likely, say I'd changed my mind just to shut them up and move on.

I think yabu Your colleagues need yo know you've got their back more than just calling for help. I think if you were faced with that situation you probably would react in the way they say they would though.

I was a police officer until last year. I used to commute into London on the trains for work but all my kit would be at work. I wouldn’t be expected to intervene if there was a fight but I would be expected to do something. Ie call for help, make a statement etc. I may have intervened if required but a lot would depend on the circumstances and size of the individuals involved. I was once asked to assist at a station with a bloke shouting and swearing and I was about 7 months pregnant. I was able to sort it out with my head teacher voice but I wasn’t about to start laying on of hands. I wouldn’t expect a civilian in a prison to start rolling around fighting but to press an alarm or make life as easy as possible for everyone who would inevitably be running to help.

I wonder what the situation would be with sick pay if you were to get injured in a fight. Could you even be disciplined because you disobeyed instructions given in training?

Irrespective what your answers are now it would be a decision at the time
playing out a hypothetical situation in your head and saying what you’d do is completely different to actually witnessing someone being getting a beating

slightly different but a lifetime ago when I worked in retail we had a blatant shoplifter
part of our bonus was dependent on shrinkage ( stock loss for whatever reason)
I was enraged chard him through town and got it back only later realised what a dangerous thing to do but just reacted at the time

Having done the c and r training over the years your help would not be welcomed. They have specific holds that are used to keep everybody safe and should be used unless in serious danger when you can use reasonable force for that situation. Your colleague could end up breaking the law and finding themselves in hot water.

It’s easy to be brave when it’s all hypothetical, isn’t it?

i am surprised you have not been offered some sort of training?

Ask your Health & Safety manager to do a risk assessment. If determined you are in a high risk environment, discuss with your line manager if you can do martial arts training, to learn how to break someone's neck with just using two fingers, as this would be an overall benefit your office and a useful skill set to add to your LinkedIn resume. You might have to write up a proposal case report for HR.

Ask if there is budget to look through the H&S PPE catalogue to purchase one of those flame thrower things, like the one Sigourney Weaver uses in Alien as they look quite effective, along with a couple of fire blankets. Suggest that the department designates a dedicated flame thrower role (working alongside your fire warden) and put yourself forward (this will look good when they do your performance review).

Take pictures and post on social media for your 'empowering women in the workplace group.'

Lol, I love it! Empowered with a flamethower!

For those asking where the ethical dilemma/aibu is, I was asking if I was being unreasonable for not stepping into a hypothetical fight, even to help a colleague. I'd do everything else in my control to help.

But its just a hypothetical discussion! Tell them you jump in and use the force to break up the fight. Or break out your black belt karate moves.

Its not an ethical dilemma and doesn't need to be a flex about who's the bravest have a go hero. You all simply follow the policies and procedures as per your role, which should have been written with the object of managing risk and minimising harm. To fail to do so makes people a liability in an emergency.
If there are no clear policies and procedures, ask for them.

This sounds like a discussion between people who’ve never had to intervene in an aggressive situation, and therefore shouldn’t. When you have it’s a very different matter. Physical restraint is the last resort and verbal de-escalation is always the preference, and the most effective intervention. Breakaway training is only used when you’re being attacked and if this isn’t your role then you shouldn’t be. You've been trained just in case and because your employer would be liable if you had no training at all and were harmed.
If someone is at risk, call for help then remove yourself to a place of safety and follow your policies. I’d be fuming if any of my untrained staff put themselves and others at risk by wading into a situation they’re wholly unprepared for, breaking all policies in the meantime.
Also ignore your colleague in their hypothetical ego fuelled chats. They’d probably freeze anyway.