AIBU to dislike Tube ads encouraging coded phrases to intervene if someone is being hassled?

[Tootingbec]

There are currently Transport for London ads on the Tube which are saying that if you see someone being hassled or harassed you should help them by saying something like “I like your trainers” or “is this the right stop for X…”

I get the idea behind it - create a diversion, let the person know you have seen they are being bothered without putting anyone at risk etc.

But something about it irritates me - it’s all so coy and mimsy. I would like to think that if I saw a woman being bothered by some arsehole then I would step in and say something direct and obvious - not fuck about with “coded” signals.

It’s the same with that “Ask for Angela” campaign which has good intentions but seems to teach women that they have to speak in code instead of just telling some that they need help because someone is making them feel uncomfortable.

I get that it might not be safe to confront someone who is hassling another person, but most of us are not stupid and can weigh up the danger of doing this vs going to get more help. This type of behaviour needs to be called out loud and clear, not hidden behind slightly ambiguous phrases and questions.

AIBU?

Most people aren;t confrontational. Rather than address the issue they'd prefer to deflect it. Ads that give ideas on how to do this encourage people to step in.

Decades ago I stepped in and pretended I knew a woman who was being really horribly sexually harassed on a crowded tube. She'd even asked the man sitting next to her to help and he glanced at her attacker and said: He looks all right to me. She was incredibly flustered and the man abusing her ( a total stranger) was absolutely evil, so it was way better to pretend we were mates than to challenge him.

Where are you going to get more help from on the tube if you see a woman being harassed?

I've used the technique of engaging in questions with someone who was getting hassled and had someone do it to me once years ago when I was younger. In neither situation was it the moment to call out the behaviour loud and clear.
Almost all men are physically stronger than women and more aggressive. I would love them to recover karmic retribution for their actions but in the moment, the key thing is to get a woman out of danger.

Then report it to transport police who I found surprisingly engaged and proactive when I intervened with a young woman and led to to a man being arrested and charged with multiple offences so he got the loud and clear part eventually

I agree to an extent. I would, and have, loudly told a man to fuck off. But, I also think there is a possibility that it might escalate the situation and result in a woman getting harmed.

When I say I would hope I would step in, I mean with something simple like “is this person bothering you?” or “do you need help?” rather than “I like your trainers” which might actually confuse the person being hassled….

I’d like to think that if a man was harassing me on the tube I would get up and tell him in no uncertain terms to leave me alone. If there were plenty of ‘safe looking’ people around I probably would do just that.

However, if there were few people, or just people who looked like they might not intervene, I might not. In this situation I would definitely welcome it if someone were to pretend to know me or otherwise engage in conversation.

I would like to think that if I saw a woman being bothered by some arsehole then I would step in and say something direct and obvious

Well you say that but I'm sick to death of MNetters starting threads to say someone was being hassled, and they did absolutely fuck all.

I completely understand why they may have done fuck all - because they were too scared to get involved.

But if that's the case, you're better off forgetting about it than asking random MNetters to make you feel better about it.

There, rant over 😁

It's extremely hard, especially if you're a woman, to call out male bad behaviour in public. I recently very nicely asked a man to keep his off-lead dog away from mine in the park (mine was in lead). The absolute torrent of abuse he gave me - which carried on and on and on - was quite terrifying.

It's actually very effective & backed up by research.

I've got many years experience as a loss prevention manager in retail and a comment like 'would you like a bag for that' is more effective than a direct challenge.

Small talk eg about weather or 'trains delayed again' has been shown to disrupt suicide attempts too.

It's good that you have felt confident to intervene in every situation but the overwhelming majority of people aren't & are afraid of misreading the situation or intervening where it's not wanted or of making things worse. These tips are really helpful in those situations - if you have misread the situation then you've not caused a problem & the person whose trainers or whatever you commented on will prob never give it another thought but the odd time you are spot on you could save someone from serious harm.

I think it’s a great idea to encourage people to help others rather than look away. DD2 had trouble on the Tube late last night and had to swap carriages. A man winked at her on the platform, got in at the other end of the carriage (which was almost empty) and then came and sat directly opposite her and stared. She was very spooked. I doubt if anyone else would have even noticed. She was scared that he might decide to get off at her station and follow her. She changenld carriages at Leicester Square because she knew she had a good chance of getting lost in the crowd there - and indeed that is what happened.

Yeah I also get what they are trying to do

but I saw a man recently hassling a young woman on overground and he was leering at her and telling her she was a lovely little thing - etc etc and she was afraid to say anything or even move - I told him he was being creepy and to leave her alone - he did tell me to fuck off - but he then moved carriage 🤷‍♀️

usually these type of men can’t handle confrontation and I’d say rarely would the situation turn to being beaten up or anything - but I’d obviously gage the situation and only step in if I felt it was safe

Very interesting! Thanks for posting this.

I think YABVU and quite naive about how aggressive some men can be.

As a regular Tube / Train user there is NO WAY I’d tell a random ranting at a woman to “fuck off”.

Immediate threats that come to
mind with me confronting someone I don’t know are:

Knives
Drugs/Substances - so many people
are off their faces these days; you could be dealing with someone completely unregulated
Physical strength
Being followed afterwards

It’s not ideal but distraction, diversion
and a quiet, supported exit seem
much safer to me.

Some of the people I see on the Tube are totally unhinged in the truest sense of the word.

It’s not about women being too meek to stand up for themselves, it’s actually an issue of personal safety.

It's also about subtly making it clear someone else is witnessing their behaviour. They probably chose a target who was isolated, and they're not anymore, so not worth the risk.

@CocoaTea agree - I didn’t mean I would encourage people to go in all guns blazing - just ask a simple direct question like “do you need help?” I think it would be as helpful and it signals very clearly to people who are just sitting there pretending it isn’t happening that this type of harassment needs to be called out - not in a confrontational way but in a way that is clear and unambiguous.

And obviously if someone is being really aggressive and violent then a different type of intervention is needed. But I think these ads are aimed at “low level” creepy behaviour not major sexual assault or violence

It sounds easy but it’s hard when you’re on a tube

you’re in an enclosed space with no escape and in general no one else is watching

I’ve commuted on the tube since yhe 90s and there are still situations that make me feel uncomfortable and I’m in my 50s now

This can inflame things, make the situation worse and scare the victim more. The advice given is based on expert advice and research.

It's not about your feelings in that moment, it's about defusing and helping.

Also, it's easy to imagine yourself being all brave, but it's not wise to risk making things worse.

I think that kind of diversion is the best bet for keeping people safe, you’re trapped in a tube and it’s important to keep even the harasser calm.
years ago I did the whole direct thing of asking a woman did she need help, and this just caused drama “what do you think she needs help for etc” and ended with me getting knocked out cold by the man. The whole approach of just talking, being that person now standing there chatting and watching but not throwing petrol on the fire can sometimes be the best approach

YABU. Whatever we hope we would do as a bystander in that scenario, the reality is that people often feel to scared to get involved at all. I'm surprised you don't think it's a good idea to use a method which might make it more likely for people to feel they can ask or intervene subtly.

Again - with all respect, you are being naive.

If I am being harassed by a raving lunatic of a man and you say “do you need help?”’and I say “yes please”, what are you actually going to do?

The best thing in my view is to let me know that you know I am scared and either get off with me or text BTP to meet us at the next stop.

You mention highlighting to other people that something bad is happening. On my journeys, I would say at least 95% of people are wearing headphones / ear pods / lost in their phones or newspapers. No one, in my experience, is going to pick up on your prompting question. No one at all.

That’s why those posters encourage texting the BTP to meet you at the next stop, or if in a bar to get the staff to
arrange a cab so you can remove yourself from the situation.

I don’t think tackling it as women unsupported will always end well. Unfortunately.

Just to be clear, I hate that this is the case.

edited for typos / grammar

Going back a few years, I was in a train, a table seat.
2 very drunk men joined me and made my journey a bloody nightmare.
I just looked out of the window, ignoring them and they got off the train 2 stops before me.
No one intervened, even though it was quite obvious what was happening - not just words, but touching.
If someone had asked me if I needed help, I honestly don't know how I would have responded. Regretfully, I suspect would have said no, just to not inflame things.
BUT, if someone, male or female, had approached saying 'hiya! Haven't seen you for ages, fancy a coffee at the buffet?', I'd have snapped their hand off.
Years, and life experience later, my approach would always be to 'recognise' and remove, rather than confront.

@Tootingbec have you ever been in that situation? There are lots of scenarios where we would like to think we would behave in a certain way, but when it comes to it we don’t.

Because not everyone has the confidence to intervene directly. A lot of people dislike confrontation and/or would be afraid. This offers them an 'intervention light' that's a great deal better than none at all. It's not about making a big stand in that moment, it's about helping an individual woman.
Its easier to ask for Angela than to say "excuse me, the man I'm with has started to act a bit weird and I want to leave without him following me. Is there anyone who can help me please?' to bar staff who often catch about 50% of what you're saying over the music. Its also been an attention grabbing way of getting venues on board with supporting women and given women a known access route to help.

Absolutely right.

OP, your idea of the right approach can escalate the situation, including towards you, and other times can be non-productive. "Is this guy bothering you?" some people who are in the fawn/freeze response, or conditioned that nice women don't make a fuss, can say no.

Distraction is best (speaking as someone who occasionally needs to deal with unpleasant/aggressive behaviour at work). A few years ago I went into one of those mini-Tescos and there was a guy there that wasn't being overtly aggressive/creepy but was insisting on talking to one of the young female shopworkers who was out on the shop floor, and she clearly looked uncomfortable. I approached them, and said "So sorry to interrupt you, I've looked everywhere and can't see the eggs, can you show me where they are?" so she could walk away with me.

Ok - I think you have all convinced me that IABU and that more in- direct stepping is often more effective