AIBU to think a foetus is alive before birth?

[Mmmchocolatebuttons]

I had a discussion with someone, who believes that a foetus is not alive, until the point they are born. They also asserted that this was not an uncommon view. I have a hard time believing this so I'm putting it to the AIBU poll.

To be clear, I'm pro choice, but I do believe that, for example, a 30 week foetus is factually, scientifically considered to be alive.

Surely, even if you're pro-choice all the way up until birth, you accept that the foetus is alive?

YABU = A foetus is not alive, until birth.
YANBU = A foetus is alive in the womb.

That's IVF though, so you're artificially fertilising it so of course you can see it in a lab. I'm talking about in natural human reproduction when does that occur?

I think for me, the argument around whether a blastocyst or an embryo or a foetus is a human or alive is irrelevant. I come down in the side of, so what if they are alive? I don’t believe that life is sacred or special or inherently valuable. We’re not an endangered species. Nothing is lost from the world if an unwanted pregnancy is aborted. I’m not religious, with the belief that a soul also comes into being at conception and that there’s a divine purpose for every conceived soul. And beyond that, my ethical position is that nobody benefits from an unwanted child - not the woman who gives birth to it, not the society which has to intervene over the repercussions, and certainly not the child. I’m agnostic in debate about the precise moment about when life appears or when life translates into a state of being alive; I find it a separate one from whether and and what stage we think it’s okay to remove a pregnant woman’s bodily autonomy and grant greater rights to a foetus.

Kindly surely you understand that IVF is not a natural conception that applies to all or the majority of pregnancies we're talking about? Obviously you can date and define something you're artificially and consciously creating, but trying to apply that same meaning and definition a conception no on knows has even taken place for when it did is totally different.

In certain places and times children were not ascribed personhood until they were five years old or sometimes older as the mortality rate of infants was so high.

That depends, because menstrual cycles vary and sperm can survive inside the mother's reproductive tract for several days.

But we know exactly what happens. Whether we know exactly when it happens is irrelevant. It happens regardless of whether anyone is watching!

You have no issue with murder? Mass slaughter or genocide is fine because humans are not endangered?

It happens....when it happens inside the woman's body.....

Well it does matter if you're saying THAT is the point a human life begins regardless of if that fertilised egg came and went with no one knowing, that's why I'm saying you're entitled.to believe what you want about your own pregnancies but you can't say to everyone else that any fertilised eggs they may have passed in a period was a human life.

I’ve given it thought over the years and if you want honesty, I suspect I care much less about either than I suppose some other people do. But we’re not talking about murder or genocide here, and it’s derailing a separate discussion to equate abortion with either.

Nothing is lost? A whole life and person is lost.

Fetus is literally Latin for baby.

@Soupsavior From this site

• Sperm Travel Time: Sperm can reach the egg in 45 minutes to 12 hours, with some studies indicating they can arrive in as little as 30 minutes.
• Fertilization Time: Fertilization is a process that is typically complete within 24 hours.
• Survival Rates: Sperm can survive in the female reproductive tract for up to 5–7 days, while the egg only lives for 12–24 hours after ovulation.
• Implantation (Life creation): The fertilized egg (zygote) travels to the uterus over 6–10 days before implanting, which is when pregnancy formally begins.

I know - but when? We don't know, and if no scientist can tell us when I disagree scientists unanimously agree that's when life starts.

Yeah that doesn't r ally answer my question though does it? You don't know if the sperm that's fertilising your egg is the one your partner ejaculated 6 hours ago or the one that's been living in your for a few days. No one, with a natural pregnancy, will ever know exactly when their baby was conceived.as in when the egg was fertilised to start that cycle which is why everyone's due date is an estimation based on their last period and can be a couple weeks off either way. The majority of fertilised eggs don't even implant and a woman will pass it with her period without even knowing an egg was fertilised so are you seeing why I take issue you the insistence science is in agreement that something as complicated and philosophical as life begins at that moment?

What are you on about? They may or may not be able to see inside each pregnancy specifically but we know scientifically when it happens.

You not knowing when something occurs, doesn't mean that that thing doesn't occur.

@Soupsavior are you havin' a laugh?

• Implantation (Life creation): The fertilized egg (zygote) travels to the uterus over 6–10 days before implanting, which is when pregnancy formally begins.

You don't know exactly when it happens in the womb.... Doesn't change it at all. And also I assume with enough testing you can probably find out.

We know it so scientifically but just not when or if? That makes total sense and totally backs up PPs argument that these were all human lives lost.

You can't though, that's why I'm asking you. If we could don't you think we would roll that out into antenatal care?

What do you find so hard to comprehend about we don't know when that is. Have you not had a baby? Don't you remember that they didn't know or couldn't know when the egg implanted? Yes you'll get a positive pregnancy test when you take one and they'll calculate your due date from your last period but they don't know when your pregnancy "formally" began on a scientific level. You may wanna go and argue PP as well cos apparently fertilisation was the point and not you're flipping it to implantation so clearly there's no consensus.

Maybe it's not worthwhile or expensive or too complicated? Even so, doesn't change the point that life begins at conception. You may not know the exact moment it happens, but the moment happens and that's when life begins

So why does @Arregaithel think and have something to back up it's implantation? Which isn't the same thing as conception? If scientists have such a consensus on when life begins there would be a consensus wouldn't there?

It's also categorically not that it's not worthwhile or too expensive we just literally don't know how to do it yet outside of artificial reproduction.

You can see it via IVF?

I honestly have no idea what you're on about.