Lawyers - US or Inhouse?

[LegallyBlondeNot]

There must be a fair few lawyers in my position or have been in my position. I’m 40, senior associate at a City firm. I just can’t do it anymore - everything is so hard and I’m fed up of turning 200 page SPAs at midnight. I’m tired all the time (naturally), I find it hard to focus and I’m spending too much time scrolling on Instagram, exacerbating my late finishes. I’m starting to feel like I get worse at my job with each year than better. I’m 15 PQE and my salary is £185k. If I could find an inhouse job that matched my salary I would grab it with both hands but they don’t exist. I can’t afford a pay cut without a huge life style change. I don’t want to be a partner - it looks like an awful life. Do I look for a Counsel role at a US firm (get paid more for allegedly similar hours) or hold out for this elusive inhouse role? There’s no point going to another City firm, they’re all the same.

I just need an oracle to tell me what to do.

I’m a manager at a city law firm and I often wonder how the hell you all do it. I’d go counsel personally.

Your best route for in-house is getting a client secondment. Any of those going where you are currently? Problem with going to US firm is that more money isn’t going to solve your underlying problem of being worked like a dog and exhausted.

Is it not considering a lifestyle change ? What would you really lose? I dropped salary a lot and have a way better work life balance now. There are loads of ways to cut spending if you want to and the quality of life is worth it

In house roles at that salary absolutely do exist - I have one. Have you spoken to an in house head hunter? GC salary can easily be £200+++

Not a US firm. They are even more brutal.

Why do you need to maintain that level of salary? Surely you have loads saved by now.

I moved from the City to a regional practice and I work 9-5pm (albeit I paid my dues a long time ago and at Senior Associate level I think you'd be working like a dog for a few more years yet, in-house or regional or otherwise).

Agree that in-house roles in that salary bracket exist, but probably wouldn’t be able to walk into one without in-house experience. Have you done any client secondments? Even if you couldn’t walk in to a top paying in-house role, Senior Legal Counsel in certain sectors will pay low six-figures so could work your way up.

I'm not sure what level of City firm you’re at, but I moved from magic circle to US firm and the hours were so much worse. I didn’t think they could get much worse but they did. Just no break at all - worked every weekend and pretty much every day of annual leave. The US expectation to always be “on” really was next level to non-US firms.

I'm ex US law firm, definitely not that. Everyone gets worked very, very hard. And it's not even about the Mon-Friday hours. It's the weekends, even Saturday night wasn't sacred! Every single day of holiday had a threat of work. When I was a trainee, I still remember we had a closing on CHRISTMAS DAY (Asian client so they couldn't give a fuck). It was only an hour of work and a few emails but enough to take the shine off Christmas. You can never switch off.

There are plenty of in house jobs, you need to start looking.

Alternatively, have you ever looked offshore? I went offshore a few years ago and it's been fantastic.

Have you any in house experience at all? If not I would push your firm hard to get you a secondment - ideally something like a team head maternity cover so you get management experience too. It is much harder to get a senior in house job without any in house experience and any formal management experience.

You mention SPAs so do I take it you are an M&A lawyer? Have you spoken to agents about bank/private equity jobs - that is likely the best money for you.

I would only go US firm if you do it medium term for the money - my experience as a client is they are always, and I mean always, on. Last week one called me literally from a ski slope as I had left a message to call me, unaware they were on leave.

Went in-house - although not to a large corporate. Actually more than doubled my salary (but it’s a bit niche). My hours are crazy but it is easier in many ways as I now primarily coordinate the work and the external lawyers have to turn the pages whereas I can actually go to bed. To be honest, I expect way more from a US firm and will choose them when it is high value and tight deadlines every time. When the partner’s hourly rate is nearly or over $2k an hour I am not going to worry about too much pressure. What I am saying is don’t be so sure it will be the same hours for more pay.

We try to recruit from secondees - less risky. In your shoes I would gun for the in-house role. Although I think you have to be sure you don’t want to be a partner. In-house lawyers who wanted to be a partner and went in-house before finding out if they could do it tend to struggle in my experience as they still have a need to go higher - which isn’t always possible in-house

Haven’t got much to add but if I were you I’d be updating the CV and reaching out to recruiters on LinkedIn for in-house roles exclusively. US firms are no walk in the park so would steer clear.

Anyhow I’m just training at the moment (mid-career change + study) and for me, it’s the business aspect to get your head around that has been the toughest.

Almost enough to make me consider packing it all in and going back to what I know.

Good luck OP!

Get meeting with specialist recruiters - they are the best at knowing what’s out there, there may be roles you haven’t considered.

Alternatively do any of your clients have in house legal functions? Could working for them directly save them money (compared to your charge out rate) and provide useful expertise? Do you know them well enough to make discrete enquiries? Could you ask a recruiter to approach on your behalf anonymously?

Why don’t you want to be a partner? It’s a different type of stress as you need to bring in the work but you have a team doing the work and a almost set your own schedule?

I can’t fathom why you’d consider a move to a US firm if you’re feeling burned out where you are. That is just madness.

As others have said in house roles at that salary do exist but there aren’t many of them and you won’t get one without in house experience, so your only real option is a salary cut. You can almost certainly live on less than you do now. We all live our lifestyle according to the income we have.

You say you’re not interested in being a Partner, but that can vary a lot between firms. You could earn the same (if not immediate but within a couple of years) doing 8am-7pm max and no weekends as a partner in a regional firm, and a lot of autonomy thrown in too and uninterrupted holidays for the most part. I could work 9-5 but have rubbish personal boundaries but that’s me not the expectations or any pressure from my firm.

Real estate not M&A.

I’ve already done a client secondment but I couldn’t stay as the base salary wouldn’t cover my mortgage. Also spoken to inhouse recruiters and they all tell me that some Head of Legal jobs don’t even break £150k and I’ll be waiting a long time for a role that matches my current salary. Given my private practice and inhouse experience, ideally I would be looking for an inhouse Head of Legal or assistant GC role, they just seem impossible to find atm at the right salary.

Big mortgage and school fees in a very expensive part of the country. I could move but I don’t want to - I come from nothing / a very poor background so to have made it this far and to have a house where I am now means the world to me. It would cut me up to have to give that up and I would feel like I was giving up on a lifelong goal. DD has additional needs so the school is also non-negotiable. DH can’t earn more in his role or the roles open to him. So the salary needs to stay.

Sometimes I think I’m mad for considering a US firm but other times I think it can’t be worse than what I’m doing now.

The thing is @LegallyBlondeNot it absolutely can and will be worse at a US firm, you essentially sign your life away for the £. Maybe ok for a couple of years to save but as you are older and in/ near burn out it could tip you over the edge.

Ah real estate ok well that will be harder unfortunately. Senior in house jobs for RE specialists are quite few and far between.

You are in the not uncommon City position of a golden cage of lifestyle creep where you now need to maintain your salary to maintain your lifestyle. I sympathise, it is tricky and stressful.

As the main breadwinner I assume you’d need to keep going on that money for at least, what, 15 years? So you need a plan on how you’re going to get through that not just 2026. So I know you aren’t willing to compromise on salary but worth thinking if a route that might involve a temp drop.

Options realistically are

• stay where you are (will they let you indefinitely?) at senior associate or try and get counsel or equivalent if they have it
• try and get partnership elsewhere or counsel at a city firm, West End firm or possibly regional firm
• go to another firm for more money. Not that many do that much RE and working at such a firm trying to build a client base would be challenging and high risk. RE often doesn’t allow the top premium charging those firms are looking for. (One firm I know recently had their RE partners leave for a non-Us firm/pushed out depending on who you listen to)
• hold out for that unicorn in house role
• seek some form of business side role, but suspect you may struggle to enter with salary you want.
• reassess the lifestyle you have so you can take a hit on salary.

If you are targeting in house for the level you want, being great at RE generally won’t be enough - you’d often be expected to pick up doing (or at least facilitating) commercial contracts, employment, company secretarial, compliance etc. So have a think about what you might be able to in order to widen your experience. Because it is not just about finding a role that pays enough, you need to be a compelling candidate for it against people who do have that broader experience in house.

My main advice would be

• try and meet up with as many people in your industry as possible for a coffee, discuss how you’re looking at your long term career and ask them for advice and any potential referrals. Ideally towards the private credit lending side. Many jobs don’t go to agents.
• look hard at your cost base at home and consider what you can do to keep it down or at least stop it rising. Save as much as you can to give yourself more options.

As @Keepingthingsinteresting said, it definitely will be worse at a US firm.

I understand you’ve worked hard to get where you are OP, but these sorts of roles aren’t sustainable long term for most people. Real estate is also not a practice area that lends itself well to a top in house role. You need to be realistic, you aren’t going to move straight into a GC or assistant GC job. Time to look seriously at your budget!

Another poster highlighted the possibility of a regional move. I am a junior partner in the SE and earn nearly as much as you, the more senior partners earn quite a bit more than you. The work life balance is worlds away from city firms and housing and private schooling is more affordable. You have options, you just need to open your eyes to them.

I can’t edit my prior post but the firms for more money I’m talking about are US firms. Don’t under estimate how different the culture can be.

I do some work in RE and what does strike me is how extremely relationship based it is.

I keep telling myself I should be grateful to be in the position I am in but it’s hard to do that when i’m about to start my second course of antibiotics for another chest infection just 3 weeks after the last one because im so run down

Honestly, you are the only one that can make the change. Downsize to a much smaller place so the mortgage is lower and you can still keep up with the school fees.

There is no short term solution here however. Take a few days off and have a good think and a chat with DH. You're a team, you need to find a way forward that works for everyone, including yourself.

I know you have convinced yourself that you need a 180k salary in London but you really don't.

And you have at least another 20 years of work ahead of you. You need to make a grown up decision about your future here.

I’d go for in-house and not the US option. The US option doesn’t solve the fundamental issue of your workload, and there are in-house jobs that pay very well.

I was in a similar boat and joined a well- respected smaller firm (but still large, if you know what I mean) and I’ve never looked back. No all nighters, no weekends, lower billing and hours targets. Generally a much nicer place to work, with really talented colleagues.

There was a financial cost but I’m still very well paid, and could withstand the impact. And it was a price worth paying to get my life back.

Can you go for a sideways move into construction or similar? There are far more in house jobs available and the pay (even in-house) is generally much better than pure RE.

US firm and in house are very different offerings. I think it would be extremely unlikely you wouldn’t be working brutal hours at a US firm (and earning well for it, if you were happy to exchange that time for a salary of £250,000).

I agree with others your best bet for in house is via a client secondment, but you’re unlikely to get a salary of £185,000.

A head of department in house would get you £120,000, General Counsel more like £150,000 - if those sorts of salaries wouldn’t be too big a drop for you?

Or, if your experience and skills are applicable, you could look at Non-Executive Director roles.