Man left his girlfriend to freeze to death

[Trevordidit]

Man left his girlfriend to freeze when she was struggling on a mountain hike.

He's been found guilty of manslaughter.

So many aspects of his account don't make sense - AIBU to wonder if he did it on purpose?

News article

The use of the word thoughtless is deliberately meant to scorn and belittle. Shows clearly the measure of the poster.

I did.

At the time the helicopter was called (by others) he said that they were not in trouble.

He may have misjudged their situation, but that is the testimony he gave.

I've been thinking about this all day and it seems to boil down to the classic trolley problem:- how far does one person's responsibility for another's safety really stretch, and what impact does each person's choices of omission/commission have on that responsibility?

If I was in his shoes I'm not sure I'd have made the same choices he made. And, certainly, there are questions about his motives. But I don't think it's clear-cut. To be honest, I'm glad I wasn't in that judge's shoes because this is a deep question about ethics for which you're never going to get a result that would satisfy everyone.

I am a very experienced skier. I lead groups on and off-piste because they value my experience and get to do things and go places they wouldn't on their own. I do this with people I know and receive no compensation beyond their company.

But I tell them all at the outset that I am not a commercial guide and that they undertake the activity at their own risk. If they are uncomfortable at any time they should say so and there is no obligation to continue.

This ruling opens me up to prosecution if one of those people behind me skis off the edge of a cliff and it turns out that their bindings are set too loose or their skis are defective or they don't have a spare hat etc.

I don't set out to be negligent and I like to think I'm not but who knows what I could be blamed for unless I treat everyone like incompetent children?

I find the concept worrying

ETA: This was meant to be a reply to a PP about how pointless him descending to the hut was, in terms of getting help.

What help could he get there? There were unlikely to be people. There would've been no help. He could have got help by calling on his phone while staying with her, which did still have battery at the point they urgently needed help. They had been stopped climbing for hours by 12.30 am, when he called the emergency services to say they were fine – all he had to do was say they needed help then, which they clearly did.

And if he was well enough to hike over the summit and over an hour down the mountain, then when she was unable to go on he would've been well enough to get them both into a sheltered position, wrap them both in the emergency blankets with her in the bivy sack, and call for help.

From what I've read about how she was found, hanging by a rope feet down off a rock face with her crampons having loosened, I wouldn't be surprised if she was struggling and injured and being 'encouraged' to press on by him as the only option left to them, because he wanted to summit and not be rescued, and so, in her unsuitable footwear, injured and exhausted, she ended up falling.

If that happened, I can imagine in that weather, as tired as he was, he couldn't pull her back up, panicked, tried to tell the authorities everything was fine at half midnight, and then in the end just left her to die. He probably hoped they'd assume she fell while hypothermic and confused after he left her there to 'get help'. It would also explain why she wasn't in her emergency blanket or bivy sack.

That seems most likely to me, anyway.

I think you are very naive if it hasn't occurred to you that you have assumed some responsibility

I am qualified to skipper yachts and take friends and family out on mine. I am acutely aware that I am responsible for ensuring they will cope in the conditions and are wearing suitable footwear and clothing and understand the safety rules and will follow them. I am always aware that I need to factor in the abilities of the weakest member when deciding when to turn back.

If you made terrible decisions having held yourself out as their guide and expert then of course you could be held culpable.

Oh so people who defend him are just basically selfishly worried about themselves, got it

But that's not what happened. According to his testimony he tied her to a rock without the blanket and bivvy. He said he went back because he felt guilty but she said to go on and save himself.

That's what he said happened.

Climbing with an inexperienced climber on winter tours is risky and if you are the expert, by galaxies, then you make the appropriate risk assessments and match the the inexperienced person.

At the time the helicopter was called (by others) he said that they were not in trouble.
He may have misjudged their situation, but that is the testimony he gave.

I mean in some ways it's meaningless as he is speaking for someone who can no longer give her opinion of her situation at that point.

I'm assuming that she wasn't injured by then?

Even if she had been fine when he’d left her, would he not have thought about the fact that he’d previously left a girlfriend on the same mountain and she subsequently refused to go on any more hikes with him and thought the same might happen here? It’s not clear if the incident led to them breaking up, or was just a factor, though they weren’t together for very long.

It's a valid point but in the end the judge, an experienced mountaineer himself, said he was guilty of manslaughter by gross negligence.

Oh, absolutely. It was good that the judge was someone who had experience of the demands of climbing. I'm just glad I wasn't the one who had to reach that determination because it strikes me as a really complex case with very difficult ethical questions.

I'm trying hard to get your points about deep ethical questions when the verdict was clear after one day in court.

The defendant Thomas P pleaded not guilty to the manslaughter by gross negligence of Kerstin G. To restate: the judge found him guilty of the manslaughter by gross negligence.

Eta the deep ethical questions seem to arise pre and post court proceedings.

I'm not sure I trust his word, frankly.

If she was too weak to move, half-frozen and exhausted, how did she untie herself and fall over a rock face? Why did he not wrap her in an emergency blanket or get her in the bivy sack? Why didn't he stay with her and call emergency services from that spot? Why did he tell the alpine officer that they were fine at 12.30 am, when they clearly weren't?

Those are only questions he can answer and she can't. The judge determined he was guilty of manslaughter by gross negligence.

Yes. That's my point. There was, presumably, a range of possible outcomes from him being found guilty of murder, to different degrees of manslaughter, to some degree of recklessness/misadventure, to complete innocence.

I'm not saying the judge was wrong to reach the conclusion he did. But I'm glad I wasn't the one who had to reach that decision because balancing the actions/inactions of one person against someone else's safety - particularly if the latter has at least some capability to help protect their own safety - is not necessarily straight-forward.

If I'm stood at the top of a high waterfall and someone falls in to the river, should I be prosecuted if I don't jump in to try to save them? Does it make a difference if the person in the water is my girlfriend and I suggested we go there? I don't know. It's a difficult ethical question.

I think there was emotional abuse involved. She had to keep him happy for as long as possible, even doing the climb in the first place as she was clearly sick and didn't back out. She went on and on struggling until she couldn't anymore.

She may have told him as the hike went on she was struggling or worried etc then he was pushing her on and on. Even waving the helicopter away. He got so fed up of her by the end that he left her and poor girl left to die alone in the freezing darkness. Absolute cruelty he couldn't even leave her with a blanket

Don’t know on what basis you told a pp their view is “clouded by the fact that he was a man and you want him to be guilty” but this reads like you’re annoyed Kerstin’s horrific preventable death may impact your group ski dynamics.

And about women having agency, if it was a less experienced, injured boyfriend he’d spent hours not getting help for and left to die after abandoning an ex bf in similar circumstances it’d still be prosecution worthy.

If I'm stood at the top of a high waterfall and someone falls in to the river, should I be prosecuted if I don't jump in to try to save them? Does it make a difference if the person in the water is my girlfriend and I suggested we go there? I don't know. It's a difficult ethical question.

I really don't care for that particular never will happen scenario, when in this case a young woman froze to death on a mountainside. @GasperyJacquesRoberts

Hypothetical scenarios - the trolley problem being a classic - are common when discussing ethical dilemmas where there isn't necessarily a clear good-vs-bad outcome. Some people find those kinds of ethical questions important, others less so.

GasperyJacquesRoberts · Today 22:59
If I'm stood at the top of a high waterfall and someone falls in to the river, should I be prosecuted if I don't jump in to try to save them? Does it make a difference if the person in the water is my girlfriend and I suggested we go there? I don't know. It's a difficult ethical question.

If the person is your girlfriend/boyfriend/best friend/ mother etc and you

• don't throw the rescue life ring or rope you have taken for safety
• tell rescuers that no help is needed
• turn your phone off for several hours and ignore all incoming calls from mountain rescue
• and you have previously walked off and left a different gf at the bottom of a waterfall

.... or all of the above as in this case - well yes - you may be on dubious ground as it sounds pretty reckless

But not in court. And I really don't care for the hypothetical trolley problem.

Please don't engage with me again. This case has really upset me and I'm glad of the verdict.

You edited your post between me responding and you adding that you don't want to hear anything else from me but I can't delete this.

I would agree with the judge's decision, based on the evidence. Personally I don't think Plamberger took her up the mountain with the intent to murder her. But I do think the sentence he got for his gross negligence is very light, considering how much responsibly he probably has for her death, from what I've read.