To ask for opinions on varicella vaccine vs natural immunity?

[Moopp]

I am not an anti vaxxer - me and my kids have had every vaccine offered so far. My kids will be eligible for a single dose of vaccine in the next year on the NHS. They have not yet had chickenpox, as there's only been one outbreak locally and we missed it.

The varicella vaccine offers protection for 10-20 years, and many people may get lifelong immunity, but it's only been in use since the 90s so it's presumably actually an unknown.
Natural infection generally offers lifelong protection.

My options:

• try to get the kids infected naturally before their vaccine appointment comes through. Very low risk of serious complications as they are both healthy, age 3 and nearly 5. They get lifelong protection.

• get them a single dose of vaccine, which offers 95% protection for 10-20 years (maybe more). They might then contract chickenpox in adulthood and it is much nastier for adults.

I will not leave them both unvaccinated AND uninfected, as I want to contribute to herd immunity. That's not an option.

Obviously eventually we might as a country get to a point where so many people being vaccinated means there is so little chickenpox circulating that their chances of catching it as older adults is really small. But that relies on vaccine uptake (or natural immunity) being above 80% I believe, and I'm not sure I have that much faith in people's decision to choose to vaccinate anymore. It will be generally offered with MMR, and uptake for that is currently 84% and declining.

It's worth mentioning that both my kids are boys, so I don't have to worry about the additional risk of them getting chickenpox in pregnancy should their vaccine based immunity wear off in less than 40 years.

If anyone is really knowledgeable about long-term varicella vaccine immunity I'd really value your input. Also I'm just interested if anyone has a perspective I haven't thought of.

Sorry didn't mean to scare you! It doesn't mean that you will get dementia, it just increases the risk. Even if you've had shingles before it's still worth getting the shingles vaccine if/when you can.

I paid for mine to be vaccinated - the goal for me is not only immunity as an adult, but also protection from what can (rarely) be a very serious illness as a child. I plan to get mine tested when they are later teenagers to see if they need a booster.

No, good to know!

Varicella zoster virus infects you (as chickenpox) for life, hiding out in the nerves of your spine for the rest of your life. It reactivates when you are ill or older, as your antibody levels fall over time. Reactivation can cause shingles (zoster), post-herpetic nerve pain, and an increased risk of stroke. VZV reactivations may also contribute to the risk of dementia.

The VZV vaccine is a crippled strain of the virus, originally from a Japanese chickenpox patient. It has key mutations in the genes that help it reactivate. It is therefore less likely (much much less likely) than wild VZV to cause shingles as you age, but it still contains the vital surface gene gE that you need to keep antibody levels up.

I've had chicken pox. I've also had the vaccine at an adult because my natural immunity from toddler chickenpox was low (I got tested at work). I have paid for my toddler to be vaccinated privately. I will get my toddler the MMRV when it comes round on their schedule.

My understanding is that the reason the NHS didn’t previously vaccinate is because exposure to children with chicken pox was beneficial to adults in avoiding shingles and so children were offering some protection (and thus economic protection too) to adults. But now there is a shingles vaccine that isn’t needed anymore so the economics make more sense for vaccinating children. There was always a benefit to vaccinating children but to the NHS there was greater benefit in letting children get infected so as to protect adults (and them in turn when they grew up and their own children got chickenpox).

I was planning on getting my children privately vaccinated so I’m very happy they’ll now get it on the NHS.

Knowing what I know now I wish my children had been vaccinated. Two of my three have subsequently had shingles. I know someone who lost a 1 year old to meningitis when they had chickenpox. I know several other children who ended up in hospital with it.

My granddaughter has chicken pox when she was young . She had it twice more and three bouts of shingles before she was 16 so I don’t think she has life long immunity. Just go for the vaccination.

I paid for both my kids to get the chicken pox vaccine around the age of nine because they hadn’t caught it naturally. Zero regrets.

Having seen how ill my youngest was with chicken pox, I’d 100% get the vaccine if I had the option (we’d been due to pay for it privately but it always felt like there was a reason to delay). It was horrific, I wouldn’t risk it when there is a way of hopefully avoiding it for free. My eldest had it very mildly in comparison, you just can’t tell how it’s going to go.

The thing is - when we moved over here, I would absolutely never have got DS1 the jab. I thought it was a ridiculous overkill, and obviously chicken pox is fine because it's a perfectly normal thing, everyone gets it. I fully assumed DS1 would, and when his German doctor said don't worry we'll catch him up if he hasn't had it by 14, I was relieved and thought how sensible. I still thought there was a reasonable chance he'd catch it.

I remember checking him for pock marks any time there was an outbreak at nursery or among one of his friends/family. I knew all about putting a sock with some oats in a bath to make them comfortable. But somehow over the next 6 years I changed my mind, I suppose just living the experience where there are no outbreaks, I'm never checking the DC for anything like that, maybe HFM? But that's over fairly quickly. It's just not a worry ever, and it seemed like a complete no brainer, I was really happy for DS2 to get it. I didn't notice any difference to the standard MMR DS1 had, either.

It's mad because if I went by my feelings now, I'd say I can't imagine having to deal with chicken pox and I can't imagine refusing the jab. But those two things seemed perfectly normal and rational to me 13 years ago! I can remember having that opinion, I just don't remember really what it was like because it's been overwritten by my more recent experience. It is weird how quickly your views can change.

Actually I have to correct my previous post. There was one case in DS1's secondary school about three years ago. He hadn't caught up on the vaccine yet and I considered keeping him home because the school sent out an email to warn parents and let them know in case their DC weren't vaccinated. IIRC it was when masking and wide open windows were still standard practice because of COVID. As it happened, his doctor could fit him in for the jab and said that would be fine. He didn't catch anything, I don't know if any other pupils at school did. That is still the only time in 13 years I've ever heard of a chicken pox case here.

100% get the vaccine. We didn’t for my eldest and it wasn’t nice seeing her so uncomfortable. She didn’t have a particularly serious case (age 18 months) but had a mark on her face for ages afterwards and I was worried it was a permanent scar. Paid for the vaccine for my youngest as soon as he was old enough.

I wouldn’t actively seek for my child catch chickenpox.
but depends on their age whether to vax against it, are they still young enough to catch it in childcare setting. My DC caught it last year (aged 3) and for us it was just like any other illness. Started with a high temperature, by day 3 she was okay. She was actually a lot more ill with a stomach / sickness bug later last year.
I caught it age 12 and had a secondary throat infection, was off school for 2-3 weeks.

My current feelings towards the MMRV vaccine roll-out… healthcare providers don’t tell you there’s 2 times higher risk of seizures with the MMRV as opposed to the MMR and separate varicella vaccine. Especially for kids 2 and under (the age mostly receiving it at routine vaccination appointments). If your kids are older (4+) and can get it then you can choose what you’d rather go for! For me, with my second having an on-going adverse reaction after his 3 month immunisations, we are going to pay privately for MMR and will decide later about varicella.

A colleague of mine nearly lost his daughter to CP complications. Something to do with her heart, she had to have major surgery and things were touch and go for weeks while she was in hospital. She had to continue to be monitored for years after. It blows my mind that some people go out of their way to expose their children to this risk, even more so when for £150 you can avoid it, and even more so now it’s free!!! I cannot see that the NHS would be rolling this out if it was better to catch it naturally - they’d be encouraging pox parties rather than telling people to stay off school/nursery while they’ve got it.

on a less serious but very annoying note my sister had to cancel meeting up with me more than once when I was pregnant because she hadn’t had her kids vaccinated and thought they might have it (they didn’t). One of them then came down with it 2 days after they’d met my newborn. I was very worried about whether he might catch it (he didn’t). Her kids then took turns to have it so once one was recovered the other got it, so she had one of them at home for about 4 weeks.

My child had horrific chickenpox. And having chickenpox doesn't give you "lifelong" immunity either.

I would have had the innoculation if it had been available at the time.

Then they have a booster jab as an adult!

Read the jcvi statement - very helpful. Always less risk with vaccine than virus and it is long lasting. At our neurology mdt there have been three healthy children with stroke secondary to chicken pox since Christmas. I paid for my two to be vaccinated when they were little. Worth every penny.

Not 2 times higher

My friend remembers having thr pox inside her vagina as a child and how awful that was.

Ive had shingles and the nerves sometimes go funny again when i am ill. Shingles is a definite Would Not Recommend.

I vaxxed both of mine as one is ND and wouldn't cope with thr itching, also part of thr reason it wasnt given was children with CP help older adults reduce their risk of shingles, so my priority is my kids, not helping other people not get shingles

I think for most people a chickenpox vaccine is a bit silly myself, i understand for really sickly children like preemies or chronic health conditions, but for most kids surely its a rite of passage?

All my four kids have had chickenpox and were completely fine, hell back when i was a kid parents would do chickenpox parties so we'd all get it done and dusted with

I paid for the vaccine for my son two years ago, because I didn’t want him to get a nasty illness and be sore and I can’t cope with two weeks off work. The decision was cemented when he got hand foot and mouth which was an awful worry of him not eating or sleeping much, so I knew chicken pox would get even worse. I didn’t know it only lasts up to twenty years but I’ll pay for him to have another vaccine then if he needs it.
fyi it doesn’t actually stop them catching chicken pox it just stops them getting ill with it. My friend has one child vaccinated and not the other (pandemic times) and when chicken pox his the household the vaccinated child got just one pox. So technically was infected but no illness at all. So I guess he’ll have life immunity now?

Isn’t it mean to put your child through a painful and uncomfortable illness that means they miss nursery when there is a pain free alternative?

Yes, DH and I only realised when waves of CP were going around DS’s class and a couple of neighbours were very ill, one hospitalised with ulceration, that neither of us had had it as children. When DS didn’t catch it then, we all paid for the vaccine.

You have to do what you’re comfortable with. I’m a clinical researcher. I work in infectious diseases. I’m very pro-vax. My dc did not get the chickenpox vaccine. I’m not convinced by the data I’ve seen that it offers lifelong immunity. I was willing to take the very small risk of a serious infection as a child over the much greater risk of serious complications as an adult, especially for women of reproductive age. I’m comfortable with that decision.

I was born in a country where they did go for the chickenpox vaccine.
I was vaccinated, like all children. I got chickenpox, like all children. But it was not huge, only high frver for a short timr and the lessions.
It has been determined, with the data so far, that vaccinated populations suffer much less with shingles in older age. It is not so much to protect you as a child, though it eases your suffering, but to protect you from the nastiness of shingles.
I think UK is vaccinating older people now.
They thought it would work differently from what it has actually done.
And UK is now joining the club of countries that do vaccinate children. Well, babies.

Now that we are talking of chickenpox: do not give ibuprofen to a child with chickenpox or suspected chickenpox. It can have severe effects for them. Pharmacist will tell you at the time, but it is another important piece of info for parents! Paracetamol is ok for chickenpox.

I wish the vaccine was available when mine were young. They caught it and then I caught it from them possibly causing miscarriage.