To decide myself how much tip to give rather than have 12.5% or 15% already added on to the bill, in England

[Jossse]

I enjoy going out for food and drinks with friends and family. I have over the past 6 months or so, noticed that some establishments have started to add on 12.5% and 15% to the bill total. This is happening even when buying at the bar or and or ordering on an app.
I’ve always added on 10% for good service and more if exceptional, and rounded up most of the time.
We are all aware that food and drink prices are now much higher and also there is a national minimum wage.
I want to choose how much tip I leave for my server/waiting staff rather than have 12.5% and 15% added on to my bill. When I have questioned this, the manager has needed to come along and speak and authorise this, making the whole experience awkward.
Back in the day (pre Covid/2000) before this was happening, I was a waitress and earned good tips. I put in effort to ensure my customers enjoyed their experience. Sadly a lot of waiting staff today do not seem to understand about customer service, I’m guessing because they already are earning the tip from the bill.
One company said the extra 2.5% was so that the waiting staff didn’t have to pay the card payment charge!
So, AIBU to want to add my own service tip or should the establishment add it in for me when presenting the bill.

It's infantile and patronising to say "Good choice" when people order. Presumably, everything you offer is a good choice or you wouldn't offer it; but even if not, would they ever say "Bad choice"?

Even so, if it's your own considered choice for yourself, what business is it of theirs? Why would they think you need their validation? I know they're probably ordered to say it, so it's meaningless anyway; but it's an unnecessary added irritant that some mad person somewhere actually thought made things better.

The 'reason' that people tip is because people tip. It's a meaningless custom, with no thought ever given to it.

People usually insist that they like to 'reward good service' - but shouldn't good service be the standard expectation? How much scope is there really for them to do a totally unexpectedly outstanding job, way above what you'd expect?

It's also a patronisingly low bar to set for waiters and waitresses: suggesting that you expect them to mess up, be incompetent and/or grumpy and unhelpful; so if they do bring you your meals and drinks correctly and efficiently and with a pleasant manner, they somehow need to be given a (financial) gold star for it.

Again, it harks back to the historical idea of only very wealthy people being able to afford to eat out at restaurants, and the serving staff being poor and living on a pittance.

If you can easily afford to pay £300 for a bottle of wine, it's a sign of your wealth and thus it's charitably condescending to give a fraction of that cost to the server in a 'know your place' sense of largesse. It's got nothing whatsoever to do with actual service; the 'paying for good service' is the modern-day spin on it to try to sanitise the reason why it's done - and to mask the fact that it's horribly outdated nowadays having an expectation to 'share a bit of your wealth' with somebody who quite possibly earns the same amount as you do or even more.

I had never heard of Bill's until a couple of PPs mentioned it, so I've just been to look at their menu.

At my nearest branch, it lists a chargrilled rump steak for £25.50. Now, I think that is steep but in the description underneath it mentions sides. It comes with rosemary fries, pea shoots, garlic butter... and "£5 supplementary charge." So it's not £25.50, it's £30.50.

The online menu doesn't mention service charges, but at 12.5% my £25.50 steak would actually be well over £34. It's plain bloody dishonest.

There's nothing hospitable about being fleeced and if hospitality is really wondering why it's in a crisis, they need to take a long hard look at themselves.

I’d rather the food was priced accordingly to pay the staff and their wages not relying on how much people spend on any given night
When checking menus for prices at different restaurants I’d rather know how much a meal will actually not get £ added on at the end.

We rarely eat out for did for dhs birthday recently and they automatically added 12.5% without saying anything to us. After reading this thread I was more aware as tbh I’d never noticed before
We didn’t eat anything exceptional, the service wasn't over and above and the waitress didn’t even know what vegetarians could eat in terms of what cheeses.

I asked for the charge to be removed. I didn’t explain why. We left a cash tip.
Discretionary means it’s our choice so we chose how much to tip not the restaurant
but really I’d rather they just upped the prices.

It was uncomfortable asking for it to be removed but I felt it was our choice not theirs.

I completely agree. I hate it enough when places that are set up to sell to individual consumers quote prices excluding VAT. Yes, I know they don't get that money themselves; but it's a part of the total price that customers legally have to pay to buy something from you, so it's dishonest to not include it.

However, when it's not the government but you yourself adding a 'supplementary' amount to the deliberately misrepresented false price, it's utterly disgusting and shockingly dishonest.

It might seem like a crafty way of bumping up their income, thinking that people won't care or notice; but I too think it's very counterproductive. People who are on a budget are seriously put off when prices are not clearly shown or liable to have been wilfully misrepresented. There's a reason why companies that can state that you can get X for £Y and that IS the actual all-inclusive price that you pay are so popular. McDonald's is hardly haute cuisine, and the prices are dearer than they used to be; but still, people can see the price clearly on the menu board and know that they can buy that item for that price and not a penny more.

@AntiqueBabyLoanSmurf

I completely agree. I hate it enough when places that are set up to sell to individual consumers quote prices excluding VAT. Yes, I know they don't get that money themselves; but it's a part of the total price that customers legally have to pay to buy something from you, so it's dishonest to not include it.

Businesses dealing with the general public ARE required by law to provide VAT inclusive pricing.

I think you must be referring to places like wholesalers who are aimed at business/trade customers so show prices as VAT exclusive (as most businesses/traders would be VAT registered and can reclaim it), but such places are often also "open" to the public or general public can easily get a "trade" card to go and buy there.

Why is that the minimum, and why do we tip service based on the cost of a meal?
If we are obliged to pay extra for service why is it a percentage and not a fixed charge per course, per drink?

If I don't want to tip, can I collect the food myself from the pass?

Nope, that's why I said 'set up to sell to individual consumers'. I realise that places designed to sell to businesses who can reclaim the VAT have a legitimate reason to ignore it, as it's just admin for them rather than an actual cost.

Granted it's not normally retail shops, but I see numerous businesses that do this - usually smaller ones that provide a trade or service rather than just selling goods. Yes, there's every chance that they do get customers buying for business who can reclaim the VAT, but the majority of their customers will be individual consumers.

When it's sole traders or very little businesses, I get that they must feel peeved if they've worked hard and just breached the VAT threshold and now their prices have to be 20% higher with no gain to themselves - and thus they're less competitive than slightly smaller firms; but those are the rules. I suppose there's also the possibility that some dishonest traders who aren't big enough to be VAT-registered might nevertheless use the 'plus the VAT' as a ruse to get themselves a hefty 'tip' under false pretences. Some probably are VAT-registered, but don't put cash payments through the books, so that no VAT (even if ostensibly charged) - or indeed income tax - is actually paid by them at all.

Indeed. Nobody seems able to say why, in the whole restaurant experience, the price should include everything except for the service - especially when, as you say, there's no alternative but to have it brought out of the kitchen to you, thus it's a very integral part of the transaction that you're already paying for - just as much as the provision of the ingredients, fuel for the cooker and fridge, use of a table and chair, lighting, heating, toilets, their business rates and everything else.

It's only the service of somebody taking your order, bringing it to your table and taking away the dirty plates that they're somehow unable to factor in the cost of when setting their prices. Even though it's the most predictable - as not everybody will use the toilets, and they may not need to pay anything for heating or lighting when diners are eating at midday in summer; but every customer will need to place their order and then have it brought out to them.

I gather that, in Japan, it's considered a terrible insult to offer a tip - as by doing so, you're suggesting that the business owner can't understand how to do the figures to run their business properly, may be underpaying their staff, and that the staff are dependent on pity/charity when they're perfectly capable of earning a fair agreed wage for their hard work. I think they have it right.

No but you can just not tip. It isn't compulsory. It's an extra gratuity. As I say I like to leave one. But if you are against the concept then don't. Or eat at places that actively discourage it or don't do table service.

If nothing was wrong I don't see why you wouldn't. But it's up to you.

I agree, it's optional and I often do leave a tip but I'm curious as to why 12.5% is a minimum.
Nothing wrong is my minimum expectation but perhaps we have different expectations.

Idk why it is that number, I've never really thought about it. I guess if it went up to 20 or something I might start to feel that way a bit excessive. But I know nothing of economics or finances so gawd knows why there's a limit set in my mind.

But I just always factor in the tip into my mind as part of the cost of the meal so unless something was horrendous I'd just pay it.

I feel for hospitality staff as it's hard work and unsociable hours on low pay. Having to deal with some very tricky customers. And it's not even the waiters fault if the food is crap. So yeah I guess that's why I tip.

I remember when it used to be 10% as 'standard'. I don't know whether somebody influential somewhere was very bad at maths or was deliberately trying to pull the wool over people's eyes, and hoping they wouldn't understand how percentages work.

Not that it actually makes sense to do it as a percentage anyway. If they want to add on a service charge of £X per person, they should do so - and make it very clear in their menu and advertising.

I also don't understand why many places add a service charge for groups over a certain number. Yes, it's more work; but it's also more income. Presumably they want lots of customers and that's why they originally opened a restaurant?!

Many businesses will give you a discount if you bring more trade their way; not penalise you by charging you a higher unit price!!

You can still add or remove whatever you like.

They’ve been doing it for 5 years where I am. Every restaurant and bar and I know the servers don’t make bank out of it. Which is probably why they don’t care anymore… because they don’t get any tips

That's a weird take on it! I don't think it is "right wing" to not want a restaurant to put an automatic service charge on a bill?

It's certainly right of centre to object to being told how to think and act.

We had one added and I was going to ask for it to be removed as the service was functional but nothing outstanding. The waitress pointed out the added tip and said she's grateful for any extra money as she's on a low income and uses it to buy groceries or put money on her electric. I felt like a heartless bitch asking for it to be removed so I just paid it. Afterwards I did wonder if she was genuine or that was a sob story spun out to get the tip.

I work in a minimum wage job and I don't get tips. It doesn't sit right with me that I was expected to tip another person in a low paid job simply for just doing her job to the minimum standard expected.

It’s fine to ask them to remove the service charge.

I wasn’t happy when I went to Gordon Ramsey’s burger place and they did that, despite you having to get up to get your own drinks from a machine.

Plenty of other hard working minimum wage jobs out there that don’t get or expect tips.

That bothers me too as they use it for publicity and tax breaks.

Oooh look at our business, we donated £25,000 to the cat and dog shelter.

No you didn't donate it. You siphoned it off customers when they were paying for their shopping/meal/whatever.

I know I’m not making sense. My very flawed thinking goes something like this:

How annoying why should I top up someone else’s wages when I pay so much tax already? I’ve worked my share of low paid jobs (some before minimum wage) and didn’t receive tips (care and retail). If we’re going to go American let’s go American and cancel the benefit system altogether. Then I give myself a big shake and realise I’m proud to live in a society where people are helped and it would be awful to live somewhere with no benefit safety net.

I know I’m being ridiculous!

I really wish that the advertised prices were what o am expected to pay. It’s not a surprise to anyone that there is a ‘Labour’ element to serving my meal. Obviously that cost would be higher than appears now but I’d much prefer it.

I bet that was a standard sob story that she wheeled out every time - carefully honed as a preemptive response to people objecting to her getting bonus money from them for nothing. Apart from 'a low income' being highly subjective, isn't it interesting how she mentioned spending her tip money on basic essentials that nobody could begrudge her and not on luxuries; and that she didn't think to mention how she could use her actual wage for many of those essentials, like everybody else does?

It reminds me of when politicians try to justify tax increases by saying how many more nurses and teachers and play parks we could have with that money; never a hint of any of it (or indeed of the existing taxes already being paid) being spent on controversial highly-expensive schemes and/or things that many people would believe to be far from essential or even would actively not want.

Same here. The current tipping system only functions because of social stigma and shame at being considered/accused of being a tightwad.

Most of us are not asking or expecting to pay less than the restaurant needs/wants for providing the meals in order to pay all of their costs and make a decent profit; we just want to be given the actual price upfront - even if it ends up costing a little more.

Can you imagine being almost anywhere else - say a shop where the assistant has advised you and helped you locate the goods that you're after - and the assistant says "That's £30 exactly, please". Then you hand over £30 in cash with a smile and the assistant looks at the money, and then up at you, with a hint of disgust and disappointment, before looking away and shaking their head. They mutter things under their breath about you, and you can hear all of the other customers in earshot saying "What a cheapskate old miser she is... the assistant told her the cost was £30 and she only gave him £30. If you aren't willing or can't afford to pay 10/15/20/25% more than the stated price of the goods, you should be too ashamed to come into the shop in the first place."