Drag Queen Storytime at my local library (photo attached)

[Carla786]

I had a lovely trip to my local library yesterday. Spent a long time there choosing books, basically the whole time there was a very noisy toddler event going on in the next room. I didn't mind, they host a lot of stuff for various people & that's good.

As I left, I looked at the posters of various things they were advertising. I saw one for 'Mama G', clearly a drag queen, which I photographed for identification purposes. I thought this nonsense of drag story hours might be quietening down, but clearly not at my library. I'd never seen them advertise anything like that before 🤦‍♀️

Checking the photo when I got home, I saw the event had taken place that day, while I was choosing my books. I wasn't listening particularly hard, but from what I heard it sounded more like a 'panto dame' style event than anything sexualised. It still seems odd and inadvisable though. If a drag Queen wants to do panto style entertainment for kids too, he should have a separate line in that, rather than mixing it up. 'Drag queen shows ' are by nature sexual and adult, so 'drag queen' shows blur boundaries whatever the content/intention.

Even if Blanchard had walked back from his theory (has he?), which he surely has been under pressure to do as J Michael Bailey has, the accounts in Trans Widows threads, Vaishnavi Sundar's Behind The Looking Glass documentary, and many other accounts confirm AGP IS the motivator for certainly some men.

Very good FILIA view of Sundar's documentary.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.filia.org.uk/latest-news/2024/10/9/review-of-behind-the-looking-glass-a-film-by-vaishnavi-sundar&ved=2ahUKEwjK8NWjqcGSAxWcTEEAHXPeH-sQFnoECEQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1HwBW53LgtT3FqrgmHBoiD

Queer no boundaries theory pusher' on it though.

Gay men have said they would love it if you would stop using the homophobic slur que*r.

I have very close family and friends I love who are gay, lesbian, or bisexual, and I'm not quite straight myself. I'm very supportive of a world where people's sexuality is considered the least remarkable thing about them, because it's no longer considered 'queer' to be gay, lesbian, or bisexual.

I don't know what that has to do with supporting men performing misogynistic parodies of women (to children), though. One can be supportive of gay men and think drag is misogyny!! Plenty of gay men are misogynistic (they're men after all) and plenty don't participate in drag. Don't conflate the two.

Hmm... And dressing in womanface as a poor caricature of a woman, and doing a song/dance/comedy routine doesn't remind you of anything? Maybe the mockery of women?

As I said, I can't recall ever seeing a drag act that was being intentionally offensive to/mocking women. I'm sure such a thing exists, but I don't think it's fair to say that the purpose of drag in general is to mock women. In my experience it's more self-deprecating.

I've never come away from a drag show with the impression that they were trying to convey the message that "this is what women are like".

That doesn't mean that you can't find it vulgar or offensive. We've all got our own bar for that, but where do you set it? Impressionists? Spitting Image?

Minstrel acts existed specifically to reinforce cruel stereotypes as part of a wider culture of oppression. Obviously not every instance of blackface since has been done with that in mind, but it will always have that DNA. It's not acceptable because of that history, just like it's not acceptable to dress up as Hitler as long as you're not being anti-Semitic.

And are you trying to say that blackface is fine so long as they aren't 'portraying black people as subhuman, stupid, lazy'?

No, I said nothing of the sort. What a ridiculous suggestion. As I said above, blackface is extremely unlikely to ever shake off its history. It will almost certainly never be acceptable.

If you believe 'drag' came about specifically as tool for mocking women, you'll likely feel the same way about it. Again, in my experience, you'd be in the minority.

@Kimura Again, in my experience, you'd be in the minority.

Yes, sadly, I am. Most people - including women, like yourself - are in favour of misogyny, and give it a pass that they don't give to racism.

This pdf has a fascinating examination of drag as compared to blackface, with some excellent examples of the similarities between the two, both in motivation, and presentation - and the excuses used to justify them!

"Most people understand this point well enough to be appalled on re-reading Norman Mailer's essay The White Negro, in which he posits African-Americans as the repository of authenticity from whom white people must learn. "Only by cultivating his 'dark, romantic, and yet undeniably dynamic view of existence' can the white man reconnect with the primitive, vital 'Negro' within himself, and thereby recapture his own vaunted 'individuality."" This is an embarrassment to read today - get in touch with your inner Negro? - but how is it any different from announcements by male cross-dressers of every stripe (from straight transvestites to gay drag queens to Dustin Hoffman in the movie Tootsie) that wearing women's clothing enables them to get in touch with their authentic inner woman, their feminine side?"

"When RuPaul says, "we're born naked and the rest is drag," he is wrong. He is in drag because he is a man, and he can stop being a woman whenever it becomes inconvenient. When being a woman is inconvenient for me, I need to remove the inconvenience. Male ideas of "femininity" are a major inconvenience to those of us who are actually women and have to live our lives in that state."

"Imitation may be the sincerest form of flattery, but do not tell that to anyone whose work has been plagiarized. Drag performers - gay or straight - plagiarize the appearance and behavior of women, just as minstrels plagiarized the appearance and behavior (or some facsimile) of African-Americans. The historical moment for wearing blackface was over as soon as the larger society was prepared to acknowledge the authenticity of black people. The historical moment for wearing drag should be over now if society is prepared to acknowledge the authenticity - that is, the independent validity - of women."

Libraries are chronically underused these days, so if toddler music events bring people in and create a new generation of library users, then they absolutely do belong in a library. Ours does stories and painting, and while it's not loud singing, there's usually around 6-10 toddlers/pre-schoolers so they obviously aren't deathly quiet. But it's brought adults back in and is teaching children to love the library space.

All library events are (usually) well documented in the library sites and their Facebook page, so it shouldn't be too hard to see when to go if you are after some quiet rather than kid events.

Libraries are community spaces and to keep them we need to be using them as such, even if that means using them for less "traditional" quiet library events.

What’s womanface?

Re the fundraiser for paedophile funeral was a performer called AidaH Dee. There were news reports of the DQ funeral - he was in Wales I think. Re pics there are all sorts of pictures from DQs having a child lying on top of him, to hugging while a man is standing up (AidaH) meaning the child’s head is in a n inappropriate place. Lots of DQ showing underwear up close to small children. A long list. Lots on FWR about this. Must whizz off now will dig out more in a bit

Yes this story. I’m not convinced it is usual protocol especially as they would have broken said protocol to report it in the first place. Something extremely dodgy and ideological happened there

The phrase was the insult from a poster in the thread directed at me, I'm well within my right to claim it. I also identify as queer, HTH.

Mary Delvey is brilliant for exposing these deluded men.

Now apparently we must go along with drag queens too because they're just playing dress up and what is wrong with it.

Nothing if you're in a club with others dressing up too. Everything if you're trying to read stories to children. Why do they even want to? Just go and dress up with other likeminded folk.

Yes, I was mystified when DQST suddenly became a thing - just post Covid I think. I saw some story that DQs had been struggling for work as the clubs etc were shut but the whole thing sounded really bizarre.

It’s so niche - excluding children scared by the often grotesque make up/costumes (there’s one ‘I’ve Queen’ style guy pictured with children that looks utterly terrifying).

Then I heard MSP Mhairi Black vilifying concerned parents as ‘transphobes’ and bigots (again - utterly bizarre, they are not trans so why does objecting makes us transphobic?) and featuring Flowjob in primary schools. I think this is one of the guys with extremely concerning social media.

English schools were reportedly organising the DQST events in schools and concealing them from parents (so they couldn’t object until it had already happened and their kid came home either asking strange questions or totally traumatised).

This rang Big Ben sized alarm bells - why on earth are schools organising events with children and hiding it from parents?? Mind boggling.

Now sadly, we see a hardcore of o ppl parents determined that children should be subjected to more of this despite the known issues.

I notice they’ve gone quiet on the segue into child drag stars - led by Desmond is Amazing (a sad story of child abuse, a young boy hanging out with almost naked men and being exposed to adult behaviour including drug taking and criminals). Obviously some in the UK jumped on this idea and there was a rash of tabloids celebrating these young boys being exposed to adult behaviour and exploited to dance suggestively for adult entertainment.

Yet still people support it. I think some are very ill informed and others have bad motivations.

The beeb LOVE to hire and cover up sexual wrongens so I'm not surprised that they would miss it out.

Re this : 'Most people - including women, like yourself - are in favour of misogyny'

• I don't think that's true. Misogyny is a big problem but I don't think most people are in favour of it. Certainly not most women.

I guess that's true. Definitely the priority is for it to have plenty of visitors and introduce as many to books as possible, I agree that anything that does that is good. And afternoons are usually quiet.

Yes - to the type of people who have been at the receiving end of unwanted adult male attention as children and who haven't been brain-washed to switch off their instinct so they can be considered "good kind little girls" when the predator alarm goes off.

There is no good reason for men to dress up as hideous cartoonish versions of women. Not one. And no good reason for them to have access to other people's children. It's grooming behaviour and we can see it.

Let these men dress up as cartoonish cariactures of other men if they want to be "exuberant". There's nothing to stop men designing exuberant clothing for the male silhouette. However, that wouldn't be as entertaining to them as most of the pleasure comes from making fun of women. Misogyny in plain view.
The gaslighting doesn't work any more.

Statistically speaking, most male predators are outwardly charming straight guys. You know, the nice neighbour, family friend, coach, teacher and so on. Sadly abusers don't come with a health warning. I don't see the automatic correlation between putting on bright costumes and a big persona and predatory behaviour. Also, I don't see exaggerating female features as necessarily negative. That's your own biais. If a drag queen makes derogatory comments (and yes, I have heard stuff on Drag Race that I thought was not ok) then they should be called out for their misogyny. But being a drag act doesn't make someone automatically into a raging misogynist nor a predator.

"I don't see exaggerating female features as necessarily negative. That's your own biais"

Men parodying women in a sexist society is misogynistic.
That's not my bias, that's a fact.
You don't get to tell women what's sexist and what isn't. That's mansplaining.

Try dressing up as a minstrel and telling black people it's their "bias" if they don't like it.

I don't doubt that you can't see drag as negative - the minstrels didn't think what they were doing was negative stereotyping until society moved on and it became utterly unacceptable, which is the direction drag is heading whether you like it or not.

And to honest, the sooner pantomimes get rid of men dressing as hideous caricatures of women the better. They ruin the show. They're grotesque and scary for small children.

Exactly. I've never seen a drag act solely denigrating women. And while I'm sure they exist, I simply don't believe that drag as a concept exists specifically to mock women.

That doesn't mean people can't dislike or be offended by it.

Yes, sadly, I am. Most people - including women, like yourself - are in favour of misogyny, and give it a pass that they don't give to racism.

Classic MumsNet. "Either you see things exactly as I do or you're 'in favour of misogyny'".

Such an ignorant, arrogant, empty-headed response.

the minstrels didn't think what they were doing was negative stereotyping.

Yes they did, they literally portrayed them as dim-witted, lazy, sub-human sexual deviants.

And to honest, the sooner pantomimes get rid of men dressing as hideous caricatures of women the better. They ruin the show. They're grotesque and scary for small children.

Scary? They're literally the comic relief 😂 I've never seen a child scared by a panto dame.

I think context is important. Blackface was a thing when black people were using entertainment to get a foot in the door in US but were still shut off from most things, in a country where they'd mostly been slaves until 1865. Actresses like Lena Horne talked about being cut out from films after singing one song. Hattie mcDaniel won her Oscar for playing a servant (mainly the only roles black people got in films until Sidney Poitier) in a segregated ceremony. And so on...

The Black and White Minstrel Show directly used these tropes & traditions, in a context quite different from the US during the times when blackface was popular, but still a context where black people were often discriminated against and had little representation in entertainment or elsewhere.

The Wikipedia article has a lot if informative links at the bottom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show

Incidentally, I was shocked to note Culture Club included blackface in a video in the 80s and it was stull going in Canada into the 2000s (hence the Trudeau expose)

To continue my point, in my opinion there ARE parallels between blackface and drag..

But blackface is worse imo contextually. Drag didn't evolve in a context where women were almost totally enslaved and then segregated and had essentially no representation in entertainment or elsewhere. Into the 1920s, it was a secret thing done in private gatherings, not a mainstream public thing to mock women.

This article is interesting:

According to groundbreaking research by historian Channing Gerard Joseph, a freed US slave named William Dorsey Swann was the first person to openly identify as a ‘queen of drag’. Swann’s remarkable life saw him survive the horrors of slavery and the American Civil War,

Within walking distance of the White House, Swann hosted flamboyant drag balls where other Black men, many former slaves, would party together. As Channing Gerard Joseph writes in his book House of Swann: Where Slaves Became Queens, the flabbergasted police officers ‘discovered dozens of Black men dancing together there, wearing silk and satin dresses made according to the latest fashions’.

' Swann paved the way for the continuing countercultural phenomenon of drag balls in the US. These flourished in Harlem in the 1920s (where poet Langston Hughes wrote of watching ‘males in flowing gowns and feathered headdresses’ at one soiree) and the Black and Latino drag ball scene of the 70s and 80s, as depicted in recent TV drama Pose.

In London in the early 18th Century, gay men seeking refuge from repressive societal norms would congregate in taverns, coffeehouses and private residences known as molly houses. Here, they would often adopt female alter-egos, much like today’s drag artists, with names like Primrose Mary, Aunt England, Lady Godiva and Black-Eyed Leonora.

Historian Rictor Norton’s volume Homosexuality in Eighteenth-Century England: A Sourcebook quotes one prominent Londoner of the time, Jonathan Wild, who was taken to a molly house. Wild writes that the regulars would ‘dress themselves up in woman's apparel, and dance and romp about, and make such a hellish noise, that a man would swear they were a parcel of cats a catter-wauling.’

Wild also describes a raid on a molly house resulting in its guests being dragged in front of the Lord Mayor while dressed ‘in gowns, petticoats, head-cloths, fine-lac’d shoes… some were dressed like milk-maids, others like shepherdesses’. They were shamed by being “conducted thro” the streets in their female habits’.

https://www.history.co.uk/articles/a-brief-but-glamorous-history-of-drag

This isn't to say that drag is non-misogynistic, just that I think fully equating it with blackface and arguing the historical roots and motivations are the same is mistaken.

'Two things that are very relevant here are that toddler groups are a child + their responsible adult activity. It’s not drop and go. Any parent/carer is able to get up and leave at any point if they don’t like the performance.'

• this is very important. Drag queens who act inappropriately in the storytime sessions are responsible for their own behaviour.

But you also have the question why so many parents are apparently standing by while, according to pps (and I don't doubt, I've seen articles myself), children lie on the drag queen, hug them inappropriately, learn to twerk (as in the video linked earlier of 'Mama G') etc etc

I mean, do these parents not have normal boundaries? Obviously most aren't expecting bad behavior or they wouldn't go, but once they see inappropriate behaviour, why don't they intervene? I'm sure some do, but it seems quite a few do not.