What DD did to her older brother

[Motherinapickle]

I like to say my children are both really lovely. Both very funny. We’re your average loving family, lots of affection, praise, fun together, etc.

DD is 14. Very gifted academically and insightful so we have adult-level convos because she’s just very interested in the world around her. Sometimes DD can get moody but she’s a teen so hey ho.

DS is very easy going, just like his dad and cares so much for her sister. He’s her biggest defender and cheerleader, as it should be.

DS has a diagnosis of ASD & dyslexia, ‘high functioning’. His dream is to create games so spends a considerable amount of time creating characters for this game he says he’ll create in future. The pad is very precious to him.

This morning, DS went into the shower first as usual but later than DD assumed he had. I let her know when she asked that he’d been there for 5mins so should be ready to come out in 5. He did. Then after DS was ready, he went beck to do some more drawing and realised that DD had ripped out pages out and torn thrm into pieces. She hid them but I found pieces in her room.

I was quite upset to find that tbh. I had there was a different reason. DD admitted she’d done that but says she doesn’t know why she did it.
Do I need to do some serious intervention here? Or is it not that serious?

To avoid drip feeding, I do sometimes think DS requiring more support when they were younger forced DD to grow up quicker. Girls generally are more mature but she was correcting him socially from quite young and we didn’t tell her to leave it to us, etc. Thankfully he doesn’t need that support much now.

It’s definitely serious and I think you need to handle it quite carefully. DS is rightly going to be very upset and his trust in his sister will have been shaken. You need to let him have his anger and not push him to forgive her, even if it spoils family life for a while.

DD needs some counselling and a lot of attention from you, to get to the bottom of why she did something so impulsive and horrible. I suspect it’s been harder than you realise being the neurotypical one - and very often in families where one child has a diagnosis, the other child/ren turn out not to be neurotypical at all, but ND with a more subtle presentation. This is especially true for girls, who mask and socially imitate better in general. It sounds like she’s been banking her stress for a while, and it’s boiled over, so now you need to tackle it head-on and hopefully emerge with a healthier dynamic. Family therapy might be a good start.

Thank you. This is such an insight post.
I would be ok with DS expressing his anger in a safe way. He’s not angry. At all. He does want to sit down and have a discussion with his sister to find out if something is very wrong and how he can support and help her. That’s him to a tee.

I have been wondering for a while now if DD might be ND too. Her room is a tip no matter how much I try and help her keep on top of it. She can get distracted and absorbed in things and will often say she doesn’t know why she’s done something. What made me second guess myself is that she’s VERY much like me, outwardly and personality-wise so I’ve been thinking that might just be her. On some level, I’m probably selfishly afraid to find out because I would be too.

Yes to counselling. She probably should’ve been part of a young carers grow much earlier than now too. Thank you.

When DH and I spoke this morning, we thought it’s very serious and are thinking of stopping her from going out with friends this weekend but now I don’t know if that’s too harsh.

I would personally not bother with a punishment, it’s usually counterproductive at this age and I think you’re right to focus on why it happened and repairing the relationships. I don’t want to jump the gun, but it does sound an awful lot like there’s some ND going on with her - messy rooms are classic ADHD executive dysfunction, and the poor impulse control points that way as well.

We’ve been on a similar journey in our family; DS1 was diagnosed with autism aged 6 and has had support (minimal, but better than nothing) all through school, while our laid-back sunny-natured “neurotypical” DS2 crashed and burned spectacularly during Covid when all his self-constructed systems were ripped away. He’s 21 now and just been diagnosed with ADHD and dyslexia. I decided to stop wasting time beating myself up for not seeing it earlier, and just focus on supporting him now.

Your DS sounds like an absolute sweetheart, you’re obviously getting a lot right.

I voted you were being unreasonable because you are treating your daughter as if she's more mature than she actually is.

You have been allowing your daughter to boss her brother around and take over your role with him. Not OK.

She did a horrible thing to something that was very important to her brother and she needs a suitable punishment, not some heart to heart talk.

It's time to be this girl's parent, not the co-parent of your son in tandem with you, and not someone you can discuss world affairs, or whatever, with. She is only 14.

I'd hazard a guess that she has a high level of anxiety, and needs some therapy. Maybe some family therapy? You and she together? You need to change your parenting of this child.

I think there needs to be punishment/consequences/whatever 😕 I can’t understand why there wouldn’t be, she did a mean, cruel and spiteful thing. You need to show your son that his stuff matters and that what she did was wrong.

i massively agree with this.
you do sound like you, your DH and your Dd are the grown up team. they're both the children and you are the adults. you don't need to sit around discussing world politics with her and correcting your sons behaviour. you need to give her a firm consequence and ask her why she was so angry about him going into the shower later than she assumed he should

I'm your DD. ASD brother, had to be very mature socially.

Also turns out, undiagnosed and unsupported ADHD like so many girls. I hated being a quasi-carer although I couldn't have articulated that at the time. I was very angry and by brother was also very particular about his things so messing with them as an expression of rebellion.

Deeper than I meant to be!

Had very similar dynamics and issues within my own family and 100% agree with @sprigatito’s advice and approach to handling this. We also assumed our DD was neurotypical, but I increasingly doubt that the older she’s got.

She had quite a well of unresolved anger at a similar age because her older ADHD brother was such a relentless drain on our time, attention and energy - and also she was afraid of something terrible happening to him, because our own stress and fear was very difficult to conceal, but she felt unable to express that because she didn’t want us to have to worry about her too.

She basically felt totally unseen and unheard during a very critical time in her development because DS sucked all of the oxygen out of the room and there was no room for her to have problems or big feelings about anything.

She had some individual therapy at 16, which I was quite involved in, and which was very helpful. For what it’s worth, both she and DS have grown into the most amazing young adults and they are extremely close and really enjoy spending time together. It sounds like your children have a good foundation to build exactly that kind of relationship in the future, but I understand how hard it is to navigate these big bumps along the way x

I was also going to suggest ND as well. Mess with my DD's routine in the morning and you will know about it! Her brother waking up early and being in the bathroom when her alarm goes off (or even just having used the bathroom first) is enough to trigger a meltdown.

Agree totally.

She's 14, a "teenage dirt bag" and you make her sound very precocious and unbearable, with talk of discussing "world affairs" like she has a clue about any of it

She needs a proper punishment for being so cruel to her brother.

I think it is quite serious and you should stop her going out with friends. She needs to realise what she did. It was cruel and malicious and deliberately aimed at what was precious to him.

How does she feel now? I would absolutely let her know how unkind it was and how it will not be happening again. I would t look to punish I would look to resolve.

There are all sorts of complexities in her role but she is also a teen sister and you can want to peel your brother’s face off for breathing loudly never mind being late in the shower. You can feel hateful but there is agency in thinking past that, understanding why you feel like that and rebuilding your mood. I don’t think punishment does much but would say differently for a repeat offender.

What made me second guess myself is that she’s VERY much like me, outwardly and personality-wise so I’ve been thinking that might just be her. On some level, I’m probably selfishly afraid to find out because I would be too.

I would hazard a guess that you very likely are. Neurodivergence usually runs in families.

What are you afraid of, though? It’s worth really thinking about that question, because I followed exactly the same thought process as yours, and I guess the knee jerk thing - especially if you’ve never considered yourself to be anything but straight-down-the-line ‘normal’ - is to fear being different, or not who you thought you were, or labelled in some way. But in effect what you’re also saying (my thought process, not criticising you!) is that it’s ok for your kids to be ND, but not you. We spend loads of time giving them coping mechanisms and telling them it’s fine to be different, but then balk at applying the same logic to ourselves!

The more I’ve had to educate myself about this world, the more I’ve realised I tick an awful lot of boxes for ADHD, and my DH has very clear ASD traits. Which explains a lot about us and our lives when you reframe everything in those terms - it’s like seeing everything with new eyes! And that’s how I think of it now. Whether you’re formally diagnosed or not, having a new perspective and way of understanding and managing your own thoughts and behaviours is a really beneficial thing. It’s not a label, it’s a tool.

This is spot on. What she did was horribly cruel and she should be punished. I also agree that you've allowed her to become a pseudo parent to your DS and you need to walk back from that.

I think I agree that treating her as older than her years will be putting emotional pressure on her. Treating her as a 14 year old who has seriously messed up will make her feel safer and will show her brother what he should tolerate and not tolerate in life.

This has made me think about how I treat my eldest as a bit older/more special at how that will be impacting her.

I hope you find a strategy that you're happy with.

I think you're over-thinking this isolated incident and drawing conclusions.

It's very important for you to stay calm when these kind of things happen (if you can!), give them breathing space.

You don't need to diagnose her just yet, on the basis of an untidy room and mumsnet posters labelling her as ADHD/ND.

Just ask her, how she's feeling. Give her an opportunity to consider what led up to this and what to do next time and if there's anything you or her brother can do to help.

Thank you. You clearly understand what it’s like so I really appreciate that.

Thank you for your input. I do understand your point. I reflect a lot on areas of my life and have reflected on parenting too.

Admittedly, when they were younger, she would redirect him on minor things from a young age for example putting her hand on his knee to remind him to be calm at carpet time at karate, or holiday club when we were not there or couldn’t sit right next to him or catch his attention to signal to him easily. We realised the impact when we noticed she was trying to ‘boss’ him about in late primary and stopped it. We explained that she could tell us if she noticed he needed correction with something and we would deal with it as parents.

This is where I am torn. As I said, this morning I was adamant it would be a consequence but my reservation is on her being ND too and finding the right one, not one for the sake of it. We’ve had a chat tonight - DH, DD and me. We’re leaving her to reflect and we’ll chat more tomorrow.
Ive realised that I forgot to add that DD is very remorseful. Her eyes are read because she’s been crying pretty much all day and says she doesn’t understand why she would hurt her brother the way that she did.

Regarding world affairs, I’d live in a bubble and ignore what goes on in the world tbh because it gets too much for me, but she comes home, ready to talk about what’s happening around the globe so I’ve had to keep up to date with what’s the news so I can keep up.

As I sad, I was thinking we might need some counselling and agree with you and pps. It’s a case of finding ones that I think are suitable and for DH to agree. I don’t see why he wouldn’t so after our initial domestic chats, we’ll do they next.

Anyone you meet will tell you she’s so kind and caring and very quiet. She doesn’t tell much outside our home so it’s possible she’s bottling up quite a lot and at home she’s like an avalanche of words. That does sound indeed like masking when she’s out.

We’ve reminded her today that we do not expect perfection from her because none of us is perfect.

I'd take some of her favourite things and throw them in the bin. How spiteful. And all because she had to wait an extra 5 minutes.

I think it’s beyond outrageous that people are telling you off for discussing world affairs with your teenager, everybody should be doing this for fuck’s sake.

In terms of consequences, I guess the natural consequence is that until you get to the bottom of it she can’t be trusted around precious things, that’s a difficult one to bear, but appropriate and rational. I would be making sure your son is able to keep her out of his space for now, that would be the consequence. It’s very concerning and out of order of her to do this, I have an ND teen and know many others, it’s not typical behaviour in my experience. It’s not like a meltdown, its deliberate punitive and sneaky (horrible word but it’s true)
I suggest looking at DDP family therapy as this js going to be relational and someone working with you as a group will probably do better than her being seen on her own.
I also suggest having a look at potential plus charity to see if your kids are maybe gifted/very bright as this can bring a whole load of other complications into things and your description of her kind of matches this, it’s considered neurodiversity in itself

My decision on consequences would depend on DD. If she’s genuinely sorry I’d suggest she / you come up with a way to do something very kind for her brother to acknowledge that she needs to take steps to repair the relationship. Saying sorry is easy. Proving it is harder and takes more time, but it so much more valuable.

I would also try to get to the bottom of her feelings. Don’t assume there’s some major trauma - it could easily be that she’s had a normal teenage moment of lashing out and she needs guidance on healthier strategies. But obviously you do need to keep an eye out in case there is something deeper.

She did a really cruel thing.
She sounds immature, not mature.

Your response to a spiteful act would be to do something equally spiteful? Ridiculous attitude.

This 100%. So many people recommended therapy - surely well in the future, if ever. Just talk to her. Listen to her.