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To be disturbed by wilfull ignorance around genetic inbreeding?

772 replies

M9009 · 26/01/2026 19:41

I've come from a country were cousin marriage and indeed marriage to any close relative if illegal.
I've recently started working in a dialysis unit and I'm so disturbed by how many parents are young children born of first cousin marriage. Usually from South Asian backgrounds.
Today I was speaking to one parents who has 9 children, all in need of kidney transplants. The eldest 2 have already had theirs. Parents are first degree cousins and each have various medical problems of their own.
Why, as a society, do we allow these marriages? It seems so cruel to the children who are born with medical and genetic problems.
Maybe I'm easily shocked, I don't know.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
Carla786 · 28/01/2026 22:00

Judgejudysno1fan · 28/01/2026 11:09

Do Jews marry cousins, I wondered this as noticed a lot of children with face deformations on documentaries.

Occasionally first cousins before it was known how bad it was, but not common. Problems tend to be from marrying within small community, which is offset by testing now.

Carla786 · 28/01/2026 22:01

ScrollingLeaves · 28/01/2026 11:17

There was an earlier thread where a poster linked to clusters of evident incest in the U.K. that were based on much closer kinship than cousins. I’d have to try to find it to see if I have remembered accurately.

The strongest links with this sort of incest seemed to come from strictly structured patriarchal groups where all secrets are kept tightly guarded.

US DNA tests have certainly had scary results..

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2024/03/dna-tests-incest/677791/&ved=2ahUKEwjFn8n-na-SAxXrW0EAHTgOOQsQFnoECCQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw345AlQlePWnUVK658J8NvQ

https://www.google.com/url?opi=89978449&rct=j&sa=t&source=web&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theatlantic.com%2Fhealth%2Farchive%2F2024%2F03%2Fdna-tests-incest%2F677791%2F&usg=AOvVaw345AlQlePWnUVK658J8NvQ&ved=2ahUKEwjFn8n-na-SAxXrW0EAHTgOOQsQFnoECCQQAQ

Carla786 · 28/01/2026 22:03

ScrollingLeaves · 28/01/2026 11:23

I don’t know if cousin marriage is allowed by the Jewish religion, or by state laws in Israel.

Israel does allow cousin marriage.

Jewish tradition (eg. Maimonides) originally encouraged it, and also uncle-niece marriage as that's not halachically forbidden. But neither were ever common.

stichguru · 28/01/2026 22:17

JoanOgden · 26/01/2026 20:50

What I mean is that any new laws need to be consistent and non-discriminatory. So if the government passes a new law that bans cousins from marrying because their children are more likely to have disabilities, then it would be inconsistent not to ban people with genetic disabilities from having children, who are also much more likely to be disabled. (This is a bit of a simplification but if we have any human rights lawyers on this thread they can go into more detail!)

Also of course the problem is not cousins marrying per se... it's cousins having kids together. In practice because the South Asian community has a high rate of marriage and a low rate of having kids together without marriage there is a lot of crossover, but they are two different things.

I can see your thinking but I don't think it would be inconsistent to ban cousins from having children but not generally ban people with genetic disabilities from having kids. MANY genetic disabilities are recessively inherited, that means a baby needs a gene from dad and one from mum to be born disabled.

TheDaysAreGettingLongerAgain · 28/01/2026 22:27

Carla786 · 28/01/2026 21:48

I thought the idea she had had to undergo virginity tests was later debunked? She was chosen partly as believed to be virginal though, which was icky enough.

The Royals would never admit to it in any event.
Her uncle went so far as to say that she had never had a lover in the national papers which is also icky so her virginity was a requirement one way or another.

TheDaysAreGettingLongerAgain · 28/01/2026 22:31

Carla786 · 28/01/2026 21:40

Can I ask roughly where you live? Is it a Muslim area? I get if you'd rather not say.

I don't think it's like that in rural Pakistan...

2 out of 3 Pakistani marriages are to first cousins - it's number 1 in the world for 1st cousin marriages. It's a genetic timebomb unless there is a massive cultural switch in the near future. China banned 1st cousin marriages in 1981 and nearly 6% of mainly rural communities practised first cousin marriages before then.

Rural communities are far more likely to marry first cousins than urban communities. Wealthier, educated people are less likely to marry first cousins because they know the consequences.

TheDaysAreGettingLongerAgain · 28/01/2026 22:42

Interesting fact:

In 1600, between 30% and 40% of married women in the British peerage were childless, compared to only about 10% in the general population. So even without genetic testing it would have been apparent to the educated that consanguineous marriages lead to infertility or high infant mortality.

Carla786 · 28/01/2026 23:11

SpanThatWorld · 26/01/2026 21:12

Spain had a far higher rate of first cousin marriage than the rest of Europe right through the 20th century which is surprising if Catholic laws prohibit it.

Well, that's where stuff like dispensations by the local church representative come in. I think in early 20th century Spain a lot of areas were quite isolated (similar to here) so cousin marriage happened for similar reasons to here in some rural areas.

ForestAtTheSea · 28/01/2026 23:49

@Hangerbout: in Germany, first cousin marriage is illegal, too.

Agree with @matresense

I see the fear about it being a smaller step from banning cousin marriage to banning people with disabilities to have children, but I don’t think it’s the same.
For one, the cousin marriage tradition in certain communities is a structural / belief-system habit; while disabilities are far more complex and random. The people who know that their disability could be inherited often have access to information and testing (in most western / westernized countries at least). However, not every disability can be tested for. But these cases are far more distributed throughout a population and far-less concentrated in one geographical area or a specific population (unless the disability stems from a local environmental source, like radiation).

As PP said, the difference is the repetition of this pattern throughout generations plus a genetic predisposition of certain populations for specific diseases, thus the probability of a child with disabilities becomes much higher.

Usually you would think that immigrant populations would with time assimilate to the habits of their new home country, which would widen the group of potential partners and weaken traditional rules. Some PP here have shared their own experiences of this change, so it does happen.

In that case, better education and support by medical and social professionals would make a difference and the negative effects of cousin marriage would start to fizzle out. Some people mentioned that the rates go down, according to some research, but they do so only very slowly.

(to continue from what @Pigriver said)
But when there are groups where the tradition is kept alive by marriage not only to cousins but always cousins from a specific region in their former home country, there is not a big chance to counteract the effects.
New incomers might be beholden to their relatives, as they are their first contact in a new country, and they seem to get married at the same time as immigrating, thus there is not much chance to make own and independent experiences and get to know different values. Then the cycle keeps on repeating without changes.

For other groups of people who practice this tradition, like the aforementioned Travellers or some Jewish people, the background is different, as they’ve lived in Europe often for centuries, so probably the suggestions on how to avoid children with disabilities due to closely related parents need to be different, too.

But to say: “things have always been that way, it’s a tradition”, is not enough when the outcomes are so tragic and difficult. It must be possible to include newer information into decision-making. The decisions that families made hundreds of years ago or even hundred years ago were on a completely different landscape of information.

And yes, eventually the children of children with disabilities might not be able to naturally bear offspring anymore, and at some point the line with stop, but not immediately. These are still some generations where both the parents and the kids will suffer needlessly.

In a wider sense, when everyone groans about the aging population and workforce, wouldn’t it be more sensible to support communities to shed the tradition and ensure that healthy babies are born? I am not advocating for some “ideal human”, but at least trying to avoid the most severe physical disabilities and children dying young.

In fact, the advantages of cousin-marriage and a small gene pool in general (keeping wealth together, ensuring partners are from the same background, keeping separate from the majority population etc), which are meant to ensure survival of a group by not “diluting” it are in the end those which will lead to the opposite outcome. How can a society survive when so many of their children die early or are disabled?

However, Darwin’s own situation of a cousin-wife did inspire him to start research on the matter and he did advise against cousin-marriage later, too.

There are also communities in which it is a rule to marry outside of your group, for example all women must marry outside of the group, but women from elsewhere marry in (i.e. the men stay, the women move to other families often a fair distance away) and vice versa. So clearly there can be beneficial traditions, too.

To say “it’s tradition, it must be morally good” is not complex enough. A tradition needs to be reassessed with different circumstances and information.

Some articles I found interesting:
https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/november-2025/dont-keep-it-in-the-family/ (written by a biologist)
https://unherd.com/newsroom/why-is-the-nhs-still-defending-cousin-marriage/
https://thecritic.co.uk/why-cousin-marriage-endures/

HelenaWilson · 29/01/2026 00:35

In 1600, between 30% and 40% of married women in the British peerage were childless, compared to only about 10% in the general population.

What is the evidence for this statement?

Carla786 · 29/01/2026 01:26

ForestAtTheSea · 28/01/2026 23:49

@Hangerbout: in Germany, first cousin marriage is illegal, too.

Agree with @matresense

I see the fear about it being a smaller step from banning cousin marriage to banning people with disabilities to have children, but I don’t think it’s the same.
For one, the cousin marriage tradition in certain communities is a structural / belief-system habit; while disabilities are far more complex and random. The people who know that their disability could be inherited often have access to information and testing (in most western / westernized countries at least). However, not every disability can be tested for. But these cases are far more distributed throughout a population and far-less concentrated in one geographical area or a specific population (unless the disability stems from a local environmental source, like radiation).

As PP said, the difference is the repetition of this pattern throughout generations plus a genetic predisposition of certain populations for specific diseases, thus the probability of a child with disabilities becomes much higher.

Usually you would think that immigrant populations would with time assimilate to the habits of their new home country, which would widen the group of potential partners and weaken traditional rules. Some PP here have shared their own experiences of this change, so it does happen.

In that case, better education and support by medical and social professionals would make a difference and the negative effects of cousin marriage would start to fizzle out. Some people mentioned that the rates go down, according to some research, but they do so only very slowly.

(to continue from what @Pigriver said)
But when there are groups where the tradition is kept alive by marriage not only to cousins but always cousins from a specific region in their former home country, there is not a big chance to counteract the effects.
New incomers might be beholden to their relatives, as they are their first contact in a new country, and they seem to get married at the same time as immigrating, thus there is not much chance to make own and independent experiences and get to know different values. Then the cycle keeps on repeating without changes.

For other groups of people who practice this tradition, like the aforementioned Travellers or some Jewish people, the background is different, as they’ve lived in Europe often for centuries, so probably the suggestions on how to avoid children with disabilities due to closely related parents need to be different, too.

But to say: “things have always been that way, it’s a tradition”, is not enough when the outcomes are so tragic and difficult. It must be possible to include newer information into decision-making. The decisions that families made hundreds of years ago or even hundred years ago were on a completely different landscape of information.

And yes, eventually the children of children with disabilities might not be able to naturally bear offspring anymore, and at some point the line with stop, but not immediately. These are still some generations where both the parents and the kids will suffer needlessly.

In a wider sense, when everyone groans about the aging population and workforce, wouldn’t it be more sensible to support communities to shed the tradition and ensure that healthy babies are born? I am not advocating for some “ideal human”, but at least trying to avoid the most severe physical disabilities and children dying young.

In fact, the advantages of cousin-marriage and a small gene pool in general (keeping wealth together, ensuring partners are from the same background, keeping separate from the majority population etc), which are meant to ensure survival of a group by not “diluting” it are in the end those which will lead to the opposite outcome. How can a society survive when so many of their children die early or are disabled?

However, Darwin’s own situation of a cousin-wife did inspire him to start research on the matter and he did advise against cousin-marriage later, too.

There are also communities in which it is a rule to marry outside of your group, for example all women must marry outside of the group, but women from elsewhere marry in (i.e. the men stay, the women move to other families often a fair distance away) and vice versa. So clearly there can be beneficial traditions, too.

To say “it’s tradition, it must be morally good” is not complex enough. A tradition needs to be reassessed with different circumstances and information.

Some articles I found interesting:
https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/november-2025/dont-keep-it-in-the-family/ (written by a biologist)
https://unherd.com/newsroom/why-is-the-nhs-still-defending-cousin-marriage/
https://thecritic.co.uk/why-cousin-marriage-endures/

Edited

He even lobbied Parliament in 1871 to include a census question on cousin marriage, a request denied, perhaps unsurprisingly, since Queen Victoria had herself married her cousin Prince Albert.

  • that's telling re Darwin. If only Victoria hadn't married a cousin, the bill might have passed..
Glitterella · 29/01/2026 03:23

Carla786 · 28/01/2026 21:57

What?? Urgh...

Was he acting as her stepfather, like Woody Allen? No wonder his son is a creep..

I believe SA is one of the reasons that Elon and his father are estranged. I don’t think the details are public but this may be one of the reasons.

Judgejudysno1fan · 29/01/2026 04:48

Carla786 · 28/01/2026 22:03

Israel does allow cousin marriage.

Jewish tradition (eg. Maimonides) originally encouraged it, and also uncle-niece marriage as that's not halachically forbidden. But neither were ever common.

Uncle marrying a niece Is vile.
More worse than cousin marriage.

Fullmoan · 29/01/2026 07:37

Judgejudysno1fan · 29/01/2026 04:48

Uncle marrying a niece Is vile.
More worse than cousin marriage.

In big families the age gap may be minimal..
I have no wish to marry my uncle but he is much closer in age to me than many of my cousins - my mum was oldest of 8 and he was the youngest

UltimateSloth · 29/01/2026 08:11

Fullmoan · 29/01/2026 07:37

In big families the age gap may be minimal..
I have no wish to marry my uncle but he is much closer in age to me than many of my cousins - my mum was oldest of 8 and he was the youngest

It's not because of the age gap. It's because your uncle is much more closely related to you than your cousin. He's your parents sibling. Your cousin has the DNA input of another unrelated person - the parents siblings spouse.

BertieWoostersChaps · 29/01/2026 08:30

Not read whole thread but can people please stop referring to South Asias as one homogenous group.

Cousin marriage is widely promoted and encouraged in Muslim families, Pakistani and Bangladeshi backgrounds.

Hindus and most Indians treat cousins as brothers and sisters and marriage between cousins would be scandalous in most families.

First cousin marriage should be illegal in the UK. NHS and other resources wasted trying to educate and help these ignorant people and the effect on the poor kids born into these conditions.

Incalescent · 29/01/2026 08:34

UltimateSloth · 29/01/2026 08:11

It's not because of the age gap. It's because your uncle is much more closely related to you than your cousin. He's your parents sibling. Your cousin has the DNA input of another unrelated person - the parents siblings spouse.

Yes, you share about 25% of your DNA with an uncle or aunt, compared to about 12.5% with a first cousin.

aneelli · 29/01/2026 08:38

A lot of cousin marriages no longer occur, I know in Pakistan it is now illegal to marry cousins.

Fullmoan · 29/01/2026 08:53

UltimateSloth · 29/01/2026 08:11

It's not because of the age gap. It's because your uncle is much more closely related to you than your cousin. He's your parents sibling. Your cousin has the DNA input of another unrelated person - the parents siblings spouse.

Oh yes good point!

ScrollingLeaves · 29/01/2026 09:29

Carla786 · 28/01/2026 21:57

What?? Urgh...

Was he acting as her stepfather, like Woody Allen? No wonder his son is a creep..

People trained in safeguarding hear that step fathers are often a real danger to their step daughters ( and strp sons no doubt too).

Judgejudysno1fan · 29/01/2026 11:41

Fullmoan · 29/01/2026 07:37

In big families the age gap may be minimal..
I have no wish to marry my uncle but he is much closer in age to me than many of my cousins - my mum was oldest of 8 and he was the youngest

I dont really think it is about age issue. My uncles share more dna with me than my cousins. Im actually surprised at your comment. An uncle sometimes is more like a big brother or a father figure to some. My uncles are like big jolly cuddly teddy bears. Could not see them as anything else.

Puffinshop · 29/01/2026 11:53

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 26/01/2026 21:51

I have been told that in Iceland you can get an app so that when you meet someone super in a bar, you can quickly find out how you are related to him or her before starting to date.

Iceland was presumably aware there was a problem with everyone being related to everyone else to some degree!

Yup, I was told truth: https://supertravelr.com/en/trip/iceland/iceland-is-so-small-theres-an-app-that-keeps-icelanders-from-dating-their-relatives-B8D7BFDAF9/

Icelandic genealogy records are some of the most thorough and far reaching in the world. It's all recorded since the settlement. You can look up exactly how you are descended from a viking in the 10th century. Of course the official records won't ever 100% match reality due to misattributed paternity, which happens a certain amount everywhere, but the official records are incredible.

The app just allows you to access the digitised records. It's for fun or family research. It's not so you don't go out with a family member. This is a joke that some tourists take too seriously.

Everyone obviously knows who their immediate family members are and much further because Icelanders are obsessed with genealogy. Nobody is accidentally fucking their cousins and they don't need any app to achieve this.

Playingvideogames · 29/01/2026 12:00

1dayatatime · 29/01/2026 09:19

An interesting article by the BBC on the prevalence of cousin marriage in Bradford:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67422918.amazing

I don’t think we can really sit on our hands and just allow cousin marriage to slowly peter out while thousands more very disabled children are born at enormous expense to the state and their own suffering.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 29/01/2026 14:55

aneelli · 29/01/2026 08:38

A lot of cousin marriages no longer occur, I know in Pakistan it is now illegal to marry cousins.

Is it? That must be since August last year. I know there have been calls for a ban, and I know Imram Khan tried in 2022 to got one passed into law but failed. The government of Sindh province made first cousin marriage illegal in 2014: is that where you were thinking of, perhaps?