To think that 4 G.C.S.E's needed to do business studies is ridiculous

[magicalmadmadamim]

My eldest DS is 16 and been at college since September. He has 2 G.C.S.E equivalent certificates in English and Maths.
I'm sure back when I was in college business studies was always a foundation course?
He really wanted to do business studies and they have put him on some really rubbish courses that he is super bored with.
Is it me or is education getting much harder now?
Hardly any of his school friends passed any g.c.s.e's :(

And even if he does manage to get some GCSEs…. Very competitive and from what the OP describes…. Unlikely successful

To study business studies at the college my teen goes to you need 5 GCSE grades 5 and over and that has to include maths and either English lit or Lang. Seems more than far to me, they want kids who will pass and not mess around in class when the other teens are there to learn and receive a qualification.

If you mean Business Studies A-level, well traditionally A-levels are supposed to be advanced and most colleges here ask for 6 GCSEs, but I agree it's ridiculous the way we over focus on academics today.
Not so long ago, you could leave school at 16. In my mum's day, hardly anyone went to uni. I think it would be much better to have trade/job courses to be a nurse/carer/plumber etc, but then there's hardly any jobs available compared to 30 years ago.
Poor kids. Stay at school, spend a fortune on a degree, spend hours applying for a hundred jobs, and still get nothing.

I suspect that the army had to inform the college that the course wasn't fit for purpose.

eek, that must have been hard on any kids who thought they were set up for army life.

AFAIK when there is high unemployment, it is harder to get in the Army. I can only remember it from when i was in basic training - many of us had A-levels.

He's not though. He's monetising his Minecraft server.....

@magicalmadmadamim - I think it's time to give him some brutal hometruths. The problem is that you sound like you are also enabling his self delusion and that he should be able to study anything he wants with two basic level GCSEs. He won't and unfortunately he is learning now to his cost what his dicking around on TikTok has really cost him.

He can either knuckle down and start studying - identify whether any of the GCSE's he failed were borderline and could be picked up and resat in May of this year but more likely the following; or look for entirely different channels where he gets on the job training along with working full time and does it the hard way [without time for Minecraft]

Its equivalent to a C/ grade four and most Apprenticeship, s etc accept it as such.

The lad that I mentioned in my previous post had what we used to term 'learning difficulties of a global nature'.

I find myself doubting that he completed any written work unaided wondering how he managed to complete any written elements in his course. Bluntly, he was a nice enough lad but it wouldn't have been safe to give him a weapon, in my opinion.

I recall my late husband telling me that there was one lad with obvious learning difficulties when he was in basic training, but that was when we still had National Service. (DH was a short-term regular.)

Maybe I'm just a dinosaur who doesn't understand but I don't think setting up a Minecraft server sounds like the sort of thing that leads to a glittering career.

Yes its a lot harder for kids these days I left school in 1990 ,and many 16 year olds went straight into work or YTS and that was fine it was accepted that not everyone had the ability or inclination for further study.

Your son might be interested in economics and investing but I’m afraid without a good education is likely to get employed. My son has gone down this route and it is constant exams, long days and pressure. He loves it and was used to exams from A Levels and degree. His friend who didn’t go to uni but is great at and interested in trading has found it impossible to get a job in the city as he has no formal qualification or degree.

Area dependent. I left school aged 18 in 1998 and pretty much everyone at my grammar school and wider circle of friends went to uni

EXACTLY!!!! yes of course there are. You can’t be this dim surely?

If you are a kid who failed to get 4 GCSEs then one of two things has happened: you either aren't academically bright enough to be doing a BTEC in Business Studies or you spent too much time dicking about at school.

The fact he ended up getting expelled means we know it's the latter. He still sat his exams and by your own admission the expulsion was only a couple of weeks before the exams.

Its therefore fair to conclusion that him being expelled wasn't just because of this one incident but because it was part of a pattern of behaviour and that was the final straw. Otherwise he should have been able to have a fair crack at those exams and had every chance of still being able to get higher marks. Those few last couple of weeks missed would likely have been mainly revision not core teaching anyway. I don't think you can actually blame the expelling for his low marks. I think you have to stop being in denial about this and realise it's because he couldn't be arsed with school generally.

It doesn't really matter now about how you got here and who is to blame because he still has to now deal with the consequences of that.

The problem is that he demonstrated that his behaviour wasn't mature enough for school and if it's not mature enough for school, he probably isn't going to mature enough to do a BTEC.

He's ultimately ended up on a shit course because he can't prove he's good enough for the BTEC. This applies to his behaviour as much as his academic ability. His behaviour isn't just about him it's also about how it impacts on others and how much time staff have for dealing with bullshit. They don't want disruptive kids affecting kids who want to work. He is saying he is bored by the course he's on but actually I'd also have to put it out there that I would put money on the fact that he would have said the same about school too - he just doesn't like classroom work. The fact it's not challenging enough for him, is again kinda suggesting he wasn't working at school because he couldn't be arsed.

With that in mind, I really do question whether a BTEC in Business Studies is the right choice for him full stop. He can complain he's not allowed to do it but his attitude doesn't suggest that even if he was allowed to do it, he'd not get on with it anyway. Nor has he demonstrated really that he's ready to get his head down and get on with things. It's suggesting it's any old excuse not to do things he can't be arsed with and blaming everyone and everything else but his own attitude.

If he really wants to get on the BTEC course he needs to demonstrate that he's really changed, he really wants to do that course and he really is prepared to put the work it. He needs to show a massive change in attitude. A college usually will let someone switch courses if they can demonstrate this kind of commitment. So he needs to start asking questions about how he could go about doing this and planning for that. That may include doing something he doesn't want to do for a couple of years and then doing a night school class so he CAN get onto that course.

Or doing something completely differently.

The point is he is now learning that dicking about means you are going to have to do shit you don't want to and it may mean you need to find an alternative route because youve fucked up and the traditional way isn't for you. It's not life over - it is needing a massive kick up your own arse and focusing on what you want to achieve. And stop blaming everyone else for it. It's taking responsibility and proving yourself and proving that you've changed.

Some kids just don't suit institutions. I think his dismissal of apprenticeships is dumb and once again is proving his bad attitude. This doesn't necessarily mean he's lazy - he's proved his not from his side hustle - it means he lacks maturity and think he can opt out of doing things he can't be arsed with.

That does suggest to me that he is going to have to find his own way to make his side hustle his thing - part of this might mean (once again) knuckling down at a night school to get side qualifications for that.

The real danger he is he's just seeing this as an opt out of doing anything due to a bad attitude cos it's something he doesn't want to do more than anything else. Plenty of smart kids and kids from good family do this. It does sound like he needs one gigantic rocket up his arse from his parents about how he can't do everything in life he wants and just op out of thinks he can't be bothered with though. Otherwise you will end up with a whinging sofa loafer.

This kid is clearly not stupid but I do think you also need a change of attitude and to stop blaming the old school for where he is now because even if they were in the wrong feeding that narrative isn't going to help. The mentality you need to foster is one of determination and resilience to prove the school were wrong and that he can get his head down and do things he doesn't want to if the end goal is something he really wants.

This is 100% an attitude thing and your attitude matters here. Stop making excuses for him. Start saying you need to get your head out your arse and work twice as hard to make up for it. If you believe in him then you know he can do this and you need to get him to believe this and buy into that idea. Positive stuff looking forward and taking responsibility not negative shit looking back and blaming everyone. You need to lead that and say that part of your life has gone, stop holding on to it. Who are you now and wtf are you going to do about it. What CAN you do instead of wallowing in this life is unfair stuff.

It's not an easy place to be in. Some kids don't rise to that challenge and end up in a permanent rut. Other kids find that determination to go forward and actually change. You influence that heavily and yes you do have some tough things to admit here which might be hard to listen to. You have to though otherwise you fall into a cycle of self pity and life not being fair.

Life isn't fair. He needs to grow up and deal with it and turn it round.

Look forward not back.

College courses usually start in September so complaining in January is pointless.

Do you know what kind of grades he’s getting in his current courses. Is he on track to pass them with a high grade (if it’s a course with different grades of pass)?

On the actual question in your OP: No, I don't think it's too much to require.

Entry standards have gone up on some courses because the drop out/failure rate when the entry standards were lower was too high. It hurts people who are capable but haven't, for whatever reason, progressed through the hoops to demonstrate their capacity. But benefits the people who might take the course thinking they'll be capable of it, but aren't. That second category of people is probably a lot bigger than your son''s category and their presence on the course is often detrimental to all their classmates as well as themselves.

Even with the academic capacity, your son may well lack the maturity to take a class like that in college. He's made a stupid mistake a few months before hand that scuppered his chances of getting the qualifications he needed for the next step in his journey, and now your description makes it sound like he can't be arsed to fix things by knuckling down and getting through the course they want him to do to prove himself. From the college's perspective, the chance of him being disruptive in the class is likely a lot higher than average.

But it's also not clear he has the academic capacity. To do well at business studies, as well as good maths and English, you need social science/humanities skills. The ability to synthesize large amounts of information (which he probably does have if he's running a successful Minecraft server), consider different view points and weigh up countering arguments. These are the sorts of skills a lot of teenagers struggle, especially if they haven't got to grips with them during secondary schooling. Business studies is probably a better thing to aim for post 18 if he's somewhat immature (which your description of his behaviour and attitude suggest).

I see why he thinks business studies would be a good fit for him if he's already entrepreneurial (though I do think the UK's approach to schooling even at degree level is way too focused on conformity to really complement entrepreneurship) but it may be that he should focus on the tech side and developing his business for now and do a business studies qualification part time when he's older and a bit more mature.

A tech apprenticeship may be a good shout out for him - especially if he's running a successful side hustle now. Though the willingness to knuckle down and do things he finds boring instead of blowing them off can still be a make or break attribute.

They need a grade 5 to pass an apprenticeship. I have 2 students in the process of applying for different apprenticeships. Both need a Grade 5. All of my students in the past have needed 5. IF a company takes them on with a 4, they have to continue resitting maths and English until they get a 5 or they can't pass their apprenticeship.

Most companies won't accept them without a 5. Those that do, require them to resit until they pass.

It sounds like OP checked out of parenting a while ago, tbh.

Yabu. If a person can’t get 4 GCSEs they’re going to struggle with business studies.

My relative gained Maths and Science GCSEs in Y11 then did a foundation Business course and Drama GCSE in Y12, now doing Business and Drama A-levels.

So why do students stop studying maths and English at college once they have a grade four 🤔

No idea. Because literally all of my ex students HAD to get a 5. One poor lad took 7 resits until he got it. BUT he's now earning nearly £29,000 at the age of 20, so I bet he thinks it was worth it.

With all due respect, I think your son has failed to understand what he has been told by the College.

I worked in Further Education for a long time and I specialised in teaching the students who had spectacularly failed GCSEs. We would never put a student on a GCSE resit if they were 2 grades below a pass. This is because there has been a LOT of research in this area which shows that when students resit they typically only achieve one grade higher on their next attempt. There are obviously some exceptions to this (students who arrived the year before GCSE with limited or no English, students who missed a chunk of schooling because of hospitalisation/illness etc) A student who missed a few weeks before the exams does not fall into that category. Colleges are not in the business of setting their students up to fail. It's simply not good for the student.

A level 2 course is GCSE equivalent. He's not resitting English and Maths because the functional skills is deemed an equivalent. He's not resitting other GCSEs because his starting grades are too low. The course as a whole will be equivalent to between 1 and 4 GCSEs, the number will be determined by the grade he gets overall.

I get that he is frustrated by what he sees as the computing component being too easy. I taught computing and that's a common reaction. However, it's not all Minecraft and playing computer games as many students seem to think. At that level, foundational IT skills, the ones that businesses actually want from their employees are taught. He'll find it's more spreadsheets, databases, systems, hardware, networks, simple coding etc. I've seen plenty of students think, because they've played games all their lives and can work out technology quicker than their parents that everything else is just worthless. However, what they are good at is front end user interfaces. What they don't understand is all the work that goes into making these work. A basic knowledge of data stuctures, coding, protocols and networking is really needed to make any money making side project viable beyond a basic level.

All the ones i look at require a grade 4 its a level 2 pass ,unless your students are going for a higher level apprenticeship?