To think that this makes no sense at all and completely defeats the point of it?

[WineInMyBelly]

I have 2 children with SEN, both children attend a specialist SEN school. I’ve made a flexible working request in work (I don’t work in education. I work as a marketing manager for a global company) to work term time school hours only. My flexible working request has been approved. But now my line manager and HR are both saying that the term time/school holidays will be based on the school holidays for LA schools in our area and not my children’s specific SEN school. The school holidays for my children’s school vary slightly from the school holidays for the local LA schools though! I’ve queried this with my manager and HR but they won’t budge on it at all. I had assumed a term time contract meant that I would be working when my children are in school and off when they are not in school but obviously that won’t happen now! AIBU to think this makes no sense at all and completely defeats the point of me having requested term time working?

I do have it in writing from my manager and HR where they say it will be the LA term dates and not my children’s school. And like I say they won’t budge on that unfortunately.

I would assume it's a standard concession that is easily verifiable and consistency across staff. And if some school holidays are much longer (like some private schools) the concession could be a bigger problem than anticipated.

It isn't precisely what you wanted but must be a lot better than you had. Do you still have holiday leave you could take to cover the non-compliant dates? Otherwise it's child minders of some sort.

HR and my manager have said I won’t have any bookable annual leave days to use during term time so using annual leave isn’t an option either. They have said my annual leave will be part of the “school holidays” time off.

I agree with others about contacting ACAS for advice. I’m fairly sure the employer has to have a business justification for refusing a flexible working request. Your request isn’t for a generic term time contract, it’s for a contract that aligns with your children’s specific school dates. Make that clear and ask for the business justification for denying it and insisting on aligning with LA term dates, not the dates you need.

God, you are so lucky, no company in the US would allow a manager to get all the school vacation days off. So the dates they approved vary slightly from the special school, it can’t be more than a few days here and there? Which means you still get weeks and weeks off. I would be grateful for what you got and arrange special needs childcare or the children’s’ dad can take a few days off where there is a small gap.

Complaining to HR over a slight difference in days must seem really rude and ungrateful.

I did formally appeal their decision to use the LA term dates and not my children’s school dates and it was escalated to the assistant HR director who handled the appeal but he still wouldn’t budge on it.

Is it worth me speaking to ACAS then?

I see both sides: I get how it defeats the point, but I also see how HR need to be clear on what your working vs non-working days are each year and without having to keep up to date with the dates of individual schools (as you may not be the only person in a similar position).

If I were your manager, I would agree that the LA dates need to be your official working pattern, but I would also take a flexible approach and let you informally swap a working and non-working week if you needed to on a case by case basis. Could you see if that’s a possibility?

The suggestion a PP made to make use of unpaid parental leave is also a good one.

3.5 weeks working out of 13 weeks of holiday doesn't 'completely defeat the point'.

You're still getting fully twice as much time with your kids as when your 28 days or so holiday +bank holidays left 7 of the 13 weeks not covered. Like most people.

I guess the question is whether you can make it work (childcare swaps with a friend? Perhaps one whose holidays do align with ghe proposed contract) or whether you will need to / would be better off to get a different job.

Read the thread 🙄

I have and oh look, many other posters have expressed similar opinions to mine.

She not in the US though - she’s in England where the bar for holidays isn’t set so low.
Can you just stop telling the OP she is ungrateful and rude!

I‘d also suggest ACAS an possibly a formal complaint. 3.5 weeks holiday discrepancy is a lot. Do you have any family who may be able to help? If all else fails I‘d suggest job hunting.

Unpaid parental leave is a good call. You get up to 18 weeks per child, up to their 18th birthday and may take up to 4 weeks per child each year. It normally needs to be taken in week-long blocks, but if your kids have SEN you can take it in days.

That gives you enough to cover 9 years of 4 weeks/year.

Or 10 years if you stick to 3.5 weeks/year. You can also take dependency leave for unexpected issues, which is separately to that. That wouldn't cover chunks of time off if they're ill,but is intended to give you the time to arrange cover.

I said it once. No need to get all snippy.

I suspect that the 'LA term dates' thing is so that people can't get contracts with private school holidays which tend to be several weeks more.

You say that there are 3.5 weeks that aren't covered, but that your kids school gets the same amount of holiday as state school, just at different times? So under this arrangement, for 3.5 weeks your kids would be at school and you'd be at home, and for 3.5 weeks you'd be at home and your kids at school.

If that's the case, I'd take the specific school term dates and LA term dates to HR, annotated to explain why they are equal in total.
Then I'd point out that if your kids holidays don't align with LA term dates that will actually help matters - as many other staff will want to be off in LA school holidays when you'll actually be working.

But if your kids holidays are longer, I think it is quite possible that they wouldn't offer you extra days - but I think asking to realign equivalent days should be fair enough.

Have they been able to explain the business need that means that they have to use LA term dates, rather than your DC's school's term dates?

I would have thought that there would be a business advantage to using your DC's school's term dates as other employees are likely to want holidays during LA school holidays.

Says the one who made unnecessary comments.

Do both children have an EHCP / are the places currently funded by your LA? Have you explored taking the shortfall as unpaid parental leave?

They have not made it clear then and the contract is ambigous because each employee would presume that to meet their term dates. They need to revise their contracts to say "term dates according to LA".

It seems a daft policy though, and surely it would be in their favour that you could be in when other staff aren't in the holidays.

Definitely ring ACAS for advice on this.

So there’s also the risk that they might decide the wider marketing team can manage without you?

That is your opinion on my perspective. Sometimes a bit of outside perspective is helpful, sometimes not. Please stop specifically targeting an American based opinion while accepting the British based opinions that are also very similar to my opinion.

OP is over reacting a bit. Her flexible working request was substantially approved. And as far as I know, most global companies really don’t like formal appeals to HR when they’ve been fairly but not fully accommodating no matter what country the employee is in.

Yes, absolutely worth speaking with ACAS now . Unless there is some other reason that is not being disclosed this decision seems very odd ( from a HR manager).

If you are in a union - please seek assistance from them, this really is where they excel.

If not - I note you have appealed. Please ask for copies of the policy they are using to draw their decision from and a copy of the grievance procedure. Raise a grievance and follow the policy all the way through the escalations until you have exhausted the process.

Finally, I am wondering about the Annual Leave situation. With this contract have you had a reduction in pay and benefit for the term leave? I am assuming that they have responded to your flexible working request by agreeing to "fix" your Annual Leave in line with school holidays and protect it so always get these dates. What I am concerned about is that they have adjusted your Terms & Conditions, including salary, and may have dropped below minimum wage or minimum holiday entitlement. Please ask them for their calculations in writing and all the policies and formula they used to determine this. Don't assume that they have done this fairly. We have just found out that our employer doesn't have access to formulas for working out daily and hourly rates and cannot show compliance with the above. One person's request has stirred up a hornet nest and the union have just gone to national committee over it!

The cynic in me thinks they have done this quite deliberately in order to force you out so they can replace you with an employee with less "baggage" who can work full hours and have full leave flexibility. It really is in their best interest to work with you as this reduces your need to use up unpaid leave and sick leave and makes you a happier and more productive employee. This is why I think they are hoping to wear you down and ship you out.

She said its the same amount of total holiday but its 3.5 weeks difference.

Both of my children have EHCP’s and the LA fund their school places.

I will speak to ACAS tomorrow and see what they say as well.

I’m thinking of contacting our global HR director and seeing what she says about the situation too?