AIBU to think if you're a net negative in tax you shouldn't be able to vote?

[SBGM247]

Trigger warning: strong political views / rant incoming. A shrinking group is expected to fund an expanding system. The system increasingly penalises work while rewarding dependency.

AIBU to think the modern state is a parasite, and that only those who are a net positive in taxes should be able to vote, rather than forcing working people to support an ever-growing dependent class?

Currently ~21% of working-age adults are economically inactive, meaning not working and not actively seeking work (according to a research brief from the House of Commons). Democracy is broken if voters can vote themselves benefits paid for by others. Representation should be weighted toward those with demonstrable responsibility and contribution.

Currently, the state is extractive and hollowing out the middle class. As anyone that has the eyes to see and ears to hear will know, dependency is rising and and demographics are changing at a rate not seen outside of wartime.

To address this simply, I think if you’re on benefits you should lose the right to vote until you’re a net positive. That would restore equilibrium.

This is essentially Chesterton’s test of a society.

"An honest man falls in love with an honest woman. He wishes, therefore, to marry her, to be the father of her children, to secure her and himself. All systems of government should be tested by whether he can do this.

If any system, feudal, servile, or barbaric, does in fact give him enough land, work, or security that he can do it, there is the essence of liberty and justice.

If any system, Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrat, Green, Reform, or technocratic, does in fact give him wages so low and conditions so insecure that he cannot do it, there is the essence of tyranny and shame."

If the state could stop turning people into dependents that working people have to pay for, that would be great. The state is bloated, fixated on wealth redistribution rather than wealth creation, and actively working against the people it is meant to represent. It is incapable of creating the conditions for wealth, stability, and independence. This is managed decline, and we need some adults in the room who have read a book. AIBU?

A fifth of people agree with OP so it's not obvious to everyone. That's more than the percentage of people that would vote for Labour if a general election was called tomorrow.

I think OP is being a bit goady but there is some logic to her overall argument. The welfare system was created in very different times under very different conditions. Anyone can see that it has the potential to bankrupt us as a country if not carefully managed and crippling workers and the economy with an uncontrolled tax burden. What are the checks and measures for the welfare system at the moment to stop this happening? Well basically democracy. What happens though when the majority are dependents on the state and it is in their interest to vote for ever more welfare? Where does this leave us?

Ultimately the country will go bankrupt, no financial bodies will lend us any money and will be forced into taking drastic measures including making unprecedented cuts to welfare. In the long term a bloated welfare state doesn't work for anyone but in the short term turkeys don't vote for Christmas and people are too short sighted to understand that spending now will lead to huge problems in the future.

Half a second of thinking would give a very good reason why this is dangerous. Those with enough to pay tax will ensure they always have govts which benefit them, with no interest in improving life, income, health for the rest. Suppose if you’re totally selfish (and deeply stupid) you could think this was ok…

Being dyslexic doesn't stop me earning.

JFC

I don't even have the words for just how stupid & nasty your posts are.

Looks like that is what he wants to return to. The post is just goading anyway.

If this is true, then that is a huge problem for society. You can't have only those with six figure incomes supporting a hugely bloated state.

However, I think that you may only be looking at income tax and not including VAT contributions?

People who are struggling to find a well paying job should absolutely be able to vote for a government that they think will help them. Taking votes away from anyone is a slippery slope. The next government might decide you don't need a vote.

Correct.

You of course know you’re being unreasonable, are you suggesting everyone who retires should be stripped of the vote, everyone who is sick or disabled? That’s really the road to facism.

We have an inequality problem, lots of reasons for it, successive governments transferring wealth from the collective to a few wealthy companies and individuals hasn’t helped. Let’s not pretend the rich have all earned their wealth, much of it is off the back of exploitation and generational privilege. The super wealthy want you to blame the poor for your tax bill, but actually the scandal is all the ways that people benefit from society without contributing to it. For example Starbucks pays no corporation tax in the UK, they lease their branding from another company in The Netherlands in order to declare a net loss on their UK business which in turn allows them to avoid tax. I’m very sure they aren’t alone.

When the banking crisis response was studied quantitative easing (the UK government printing money) resulted in that money ending up in the hands of people who were already rich, almost none of that extra money in the system worked its way to ordinary people, but we all took the hit when inflation outpaced wage growth.

Council housing being sold is another example, homes were owned by the state and lots of people (not just the very poorest) had a secure home as a result, all these houses were sold and now a massive chunk of that housing stock is in the hands of private landlords who are making a tidy profit from renting to people who 40 years ago would have had a secure council tenancy.

Have you seen what’s happened to children’s homes? Again something previously run by the state now run for profit by private companies who are making huge profits.

We have an aging population which has enormous care costs and successive governments have acted in a short term fashion which has reduced state assets and increased state debt. Those that have most benefited from this are able to minimise their own tax liability. We have one of the most complex tax systems in the world, it isn’t like that to benefit ordinary workers.

I can't quite remember the name of the poster I'm thinking of from last year, Distinguished something or other?

Okay, put your money where your mouth is. Show me the break even figures for each of singles and couples, with none, one, two, three and four children, state educated, NHS users, living until 70, 75, 80, 85, with and without cancer treatment, state pension only and state pension plus pension credit. So I know what income each group would have to have to be net contributors. Then I’ll tell you if those people are rich or not. I’m sure you can do it with blockchain and DID.

If you're relying on other people then you're still a child.

Then you can GET TAE FUCK! 😆

Yes I was just thinking it would completely bury Farage.

Yes, if competent people were in power perhaps we'd have better decisions. Children's homes good example!

More holes than swiss cheese.

Would it be calculated for National elections? What about devolved governments? Councils? Parish councils??
As well as the - presumably annual -assessments, we could have quarterly reviews too: if one was a tax payer but also had a medical condition whereby one suddenly cost more than one contributed then one would be struck off the Eligible Voters list.
It would be clear how rich we were to our neighbours & friends according to our ability to vote - a nice bonus.
ID cards would be required to support the electronic voting system so that changes to all of the above could be taken into account in real time.
In fact, combine these changes with compulsory voting & when we get to the Polling Station (for we would keep that sign of democracy!) we would be told if we had qualified to vote during that period.
OP this is genius!

I get the sentiment OP, but the idea falls down completely with the slightest scrutiny.

haha, nice try

you're all (as in as a country) too stupid to realise that this happens a lot because of your daft FPTP vote counting system.

Everyone pays tax as we all pay VAT - how do you propose tracking that spend for eligibility ?

Nobody listens to pensioners anyway.

I’m a pensioner!

Interesting...

The only reason why I don't work is because I have a disabled child. Of course I should still have the right to vote. 🙄

Blockchain and DIDs.

Definitely