to think flexible working is still gendered?

[HazelMember]

In my organisation, very few men apply for flexible working for childcare reasons. The vast majority of applicants are women.

What’s frustrating is that men and women often do the same jobs, but flexibility is still framed as something mainly for mums. Women are encouraged (or expected) to adjust their working patterns to juggle childcare while men are seen as less likely to be “flexible”.

That just reinforces the idea that childcare is primarily a woman’s responsibility and paid work is a man’s priority.

Yes I know there are men who opt for flexible working and do the majority of childcare. This is not about that.

In my work place the only ones that get to wfh are the management…all men.
a few of us ladies have mentioned it in passing, as an option for a few week days, but it’s always been shushed aside as they prefer us in situ even though all our jobs are desk/pc based so could be fully done at home.
basically, wfh is viewed “as a perk” and giving the minions that benefit would erode their seniority.

Surely it largely depends on the men and where they work? My DH’s workplace offered 6 months fully paid paternity leave for anyone whose partner’s wanted to return to work. But only he and one other man in the org chose to do it. It was great for us. I did the first 6 months, he did the second and then when she was at nursery we both did four day weeks so she was only at nursery 3 days a week and we each had a day off with her. Even now she is at school he has arranged flexible compresses hours so that he does all drops offs and one day a week he finishes early to spend the afternoon with her after school. The fact that other can do it but choose not to is no doubt partially influenced by societal expectations, but it is still a choice.

You are blaming external societal pressures for this and completely ignoring that more women than men want to be around for their children. This is not a hardship women are facing, they are lucky if they can get the flexibility they want with work.

We need to stop pretending that men and women always want the same thing. They don’t. It’s nice to be able to spend time with your children and the fact that more women than men get to do this means that women are in the better position. They get to keep their careers and be around for their children, which can’t be said for the many men that feel the pressure to work as much as possible to provide financial stability for the family.

Not everything in life has to be about how the poor women don’t have everything in their favour. Sometimes, we are in a better position than the men.

Almost everyone in my area has some kind of flexible working, even those without kids. I work with emotionally intelligent men who are open to any type of feedback. Both men and women do the school runs, clubs, homework.

My DH is the same. Everything is split in our house without the need for discussion on how. It just is.

If men don’t ask for flexible working then why does it force women to do so? Many couples work the same number of hours.

You’re also ignoring the fact that some women love working part-time because they actively want more time with their kids and would choose to work part-time even if they didn’t need the money from
the job.

When you read relationship dilemmas on here, men who don’t work part-time are always questioned why because the majority see it as strange for a man to work part-time. Working part-time is seen as lazy (or for the super rich !) and lacking ambition.

Having read my fair share of stories on here over the years, I think that too many men become fathers to keep their partner. It’s seen as perfectly normal for men to be part-time parents after a split and they are applauded for basics like paying child maintenance on time. The bar for being a good single mum is infinitely higher and harder because I made the choice to work around the family and the gamble didn’t pay off. The decision wasn’t forced on me- I was part of the decision making process and assumed that the short-term benefits would pay off long term.

A family member had a similar response when he needed some time off to care for a sick child and the child's mother had just started in a new role that week, "can't your wife just do it?". A lot of workplaces still have very traditional ideas about how wives should support husbands careers.

Having a child will never be an equal process for men and women. Women carry the child and take maternity leave. They have a biological clock and imho are the ones who are more keen to have a child than men who have the luxury of having kids much later.

I think that maternity leave also ingrains the differences. The men often have the luxury of just going to work as if they were childless while the woman does night wakings etc as they aren’t working. I’ve read lots of stories on here where the man expects the woman to continue contributing 50% of the bills too as well as having childcare being her expense. The childcare thing continues after the split too with the dad refusing to pay on his days with the child.

Caring is seen as women’s work and it’s the same when it comes to care of the disabled and elderly too regardless of blood or in law status. Men are going to be generally happy to be excused from the unpaid drudgery and can find a new nanny with a fanny if their current relationship doesn’t work out.

@Snorlaxo
Having read my fair share of stories on here over the years, I think that too many men become fathers to keep their partner
I think this is far more common than MN often leads people to believe. The idea that children and all that they entail are equally wanted by both parents is often a fiction. I have known children come about from almost stalemate situations where the only options left have been to have children or breakup. Sometimes the father is the one pushing for children but more often IME it's the woman. Anecdotally this is especially true when a divorced man with children already meets a younger woman that wants a family. There have been some very obvious cases IRL where the man has reluctantly agreed to have children on the proviso that the woman will do most of the parenting heavy lifting.

It's certainly not ideal but the reality is that there are nowhere near enough good men that desperately want to be fathers to go around for all the women that want a family. Studies show that the majority of child free women are involuntarily child free. If it's a choice between not having children, going it alone or having children with a man that seems reluctant but could come around to the idea then you can see why women opt for the latter. If the man's reluctance doesn't change though then the woman can end up doing the lion's share of the parenting.

Who are the winners and losers of this situation? It's hard to say. Ultimately the woman has what she wanted most, the child. The man can often offload domestic and childcare responsibility to the woman in a way that mothers can't. It's a messy situation but one that lots of women would prefer rather than to never have kids.

I think this is changing somewhat. I see more men asking for flexible working. It only became an option in 2003, so its a big societal shift. Shared parental leave only came in 2015, so until then women had to take all the leave and it did set up patterns in households.

When my dh first asked back in 2007 he was literally told 'thats what your wife is for' by management. A few years later he got his request approved.

It’s not about pretending men and women want the same things. It’s about recognising that the “choices” people make are shaped by the options they realistically have. When women are more likely to earn less, more likely to be seen as the default parent, and more likely to face judgment for prioritising work, it’s hardly surprising that more of them end up adjusting their careers for childcare.

Calling this a “lucky position” ignores the long-term cost. Flexible working often comes with slower progression, lower pay, fewer leadership opportunities, and less financial independence. Spending more time with your children is valuable but it shouldn’t come at such a disproportionate professional and financial price for one gender.

The idea that men are the real victims because they feel pressure to provide actually proves the point. Those pressures exist because we still expect men to be breadwinners and women to be carers. That hurts men too but it doesn’t make women “better off”. It just means both genders are stuck in outdated roles, with women paying for it in their careers and men paying for it in their time with their families.

This isn’t about playing the “poor women” card. It’s about pointing out an imbalance that limits everyone. Real equality would mean both men and women can build careers and be present parents without one side consistently carrying more of the sacrifice.

Men not asking for flexible working doesn’t mean women aren’t being pressured into it. Childcare still falls mainly on mothers, when schools and nurseries default to contacting mums and when women are more likely to earn less, the “choice” to adjust work hours often isn’t neutral. Even if couples work the same number of hours, the mental load and day-to-day responsibility still tend to land on women which makes flexibility feel like the practical option. Heard about the mental load concept?

Of course some women genuinely want to work part-time and spend more time with their children. That’s not the issue. The problem is that this path is far more normalised, expected, and socially accepted for women than for men. When men working part-time are seen as lazy or unambitious and women doing the same are seen as sensible mothers, that’s a clear sign of gendered expectations not pure personal choice.

The fact that men are questioned for not working part-time doesn’t prove equality. It shows how low the bar still is for fathers. Being praised for basic responsibilities like paying maintenance or seeing their kids regularly highlights how uneven expectations are. Mothers are expected to organise everything and sacrifice more.

Saying “the decision wasn’t forced on me” doesn’t mean pressure wasn’t present. Many women make those choices believing they’re doing what’s best for the family, often assuming their careers can recover later. The reality is that they frequently don’t while men’s careers continue largely unaffected.

This isn’t about blaming individuals. It’s about recognising a pattern where women consistently carry more of the long-term cost of parenting. When one gender repeatedly pays the bigger price in career progression, income and security, that’s not just personal preference.

You're entirely missing the point. The original question was around misogynistic approaches to parenting and women being 'encouraged' or 'expected' to be the default parent. What you're saying backs my argument. It is a woman's choice to spend more time with their child in the same way that it was my choice to share the responsibility equally. It's not some mythical force, it's her choice.

The pattern is the gender pay gap, women historically earn less. It makes sense for the lower earner to go part time as that’s a way to maximise your income. Flexible working is a tool for managing the household, it’s not the cause of anything.

I see things slowly changing. At school/nursery it’s pretty much 50/50 mums and dads doing the pick up/drop off. Apart from the women on mat leave, both partners share the load with flexible working (we do as well as it was hugely important to us, luckily our wages are similar). There are a similar number of families where the woman works full time with no flexibility (and her partner does the main share of child logistics) as there are men doing the same thing.

I work in a highly male dominated industry and in the last 10yrs have noticed more and more men taking shared paternal leave. They all take their maximum father’s leave as well. All the men with young families have some kind of flexible working (wfh one day a week, or finish/start different times for school).

It is changing, but slowly. The more women close the gender pay gap the less likely they will be the default person dropping hours for childcare.

I do t think men are the victims but I don’t think women are either.

Yes, some of women’s choices are shaped by the options they have, but they are shaped just as much by what women actually want. And most women want to spend time with their children. It doesn’t have to come at a price unless women choose to keep their working hours low when their children get older. A few years of working part time or flexibly doesn’t automatically harm women’s career opportunities.

It is not a sacrifice to look after your own young children.

I dont think flexible working and part time are synonymous.

Flexible working could be condensed weeks, 9 day fortnight's, late starts, early starts, wfh, evening work, weekend work, night shifts etc to assist with childcare. But these arrangements can all impact on progress if they are outside the normal work culture.

You cant have neither parent available to get the child to or from childcare, someone has to flex somehow.. unless you are wealthy enough for a nanny or both have inflexible jobs that fit neatly within nursery hours with travel time.