Should landscaper pay for rubbish disposal?

[SadlyMissTaken]

Hi all
I commissioned someone to build a patio and walls at the back of my garden. Limit on price was £5k. I made clear I could not go above that. No contract (I know ... Idiot) Part way through landscaper said he expected my partner to take the rubbish (concrete from old path and wall etc) to the tip. I don't drive, partner is an alcoholic and we split up before xmas. Property is mine.
I did point out that relying on partner wasn't going to work.
The guy has been a nightmare to deal with to say the least but that's another story.
Job is now almost finished and builder has texted me asking for full payment minus £200 for outstanding remaining work on the patio (there is more than £200 worth outstanding). The pile of rubbish in my front garden and side alley is now massive. I understand skips are £300/half hour to hire and I will also need help filling it up. AIBU to dispute being left with this extra cost given I specified £5k max for the job? Or should I suck it up as I didn't sign a contract?
Thanks

I don't agree with some of these posts. Contractually he agreed to build a patio and wall. Part of that is to dig down, level and then lay the stone. It's ridiculous for a contractor to say that doesn't include waste removal because it's part of the job. Otherwise a householder is wasting money to have an unusable area because they've not removed the rubbish. I would not pay on the basis that the waste has to be removed. It's commercial waste not DIY and disposal should have been included and carried out by your builder. Your builder is trying to pull a fast one.

Oh, right, yes.

I think you have to take the waste disposal as a lesson learned unfortunately. It’s a big thing where I live as it’s so expensive for vans to go to the tip, so it’s always an up-front negotiation.

But do not pay him until he’s finished the job! You will never see him again - £200 is not incentive enough to him to come back.

Op ask @mumsnet to move this to legal. There are a few legal bods on there

Yes, he agreed to build a patio and wall. He didn't agree to dispose of all her waste as well.

Unfortunately this is what happens when you use someone cheap and don't get a contract.

Unfortunately while I do think he should have been clear about it, it is ultimately you to be clear about specifically what you want and need. We have been speaking to several landscapers and mentioned rubbish removal to all and some have said they don't do it. We are also asking them to draw up an invoice and detail of what the work entails to then decide and create a contract.

It's one of those you live and learn moments for you OP.

I know you keep saying this, but it isn't the way quotes usually work.

The way I'd ask for a quote would be to say "I want X and Y doing". Tradesman then comes back with a price and I'd double check 'What does or doesn't that include?' if he hadn't stated it clearly either way. Some workmen will give more detail than others. I then can work out if that is something I can afford and if not, what I am going to do instead.

It isn't usual to tell the person who is quoting for you how much money you have.

After they have quoted, if it is more than you want to spend you might^ then say 'Well, what if you leave out this or that' to get it within your budget.

You can hire a waste removal company to come and take the waste away for you. A couple I have used in the past are Litta, and Clearabee. They will come and collect all the waste and take it away, it doesn't necessarily need to go into a skip.

A landscaper may not be licenced to remove waste, but most will include the price, arranging and filling of a skip in their quote, if you ask for it. It sounds like the person you used is not a particularly reputable one. In future, you know to ask for a written, itemised quote before starting work.

Depends on the work. For our work we’ve agreed on a price after quotes but also advised what our absolute top budget is. Because if the work starts to approach that figure with extras and little finds and this added work or that part (which always happens with builders etc) then we need to reasses because we will not be able to pay it.

A skip is a flat fee, we had one for about £300 and called when we wanted it collected. If he has a van or flatbed he would be charged a commercial rate per load at the tip and rubble can be extra.

Lesson learned the hard way I'm afraid.

Its always best to be clear about these details up front, and if you want work done at a reasonable price it's these things that go by the wayside first.

The cost of disposing of waste has been increasing, and the admin around it has increased too, which is why we have a massive increase in criminal gangs flytipping.

You’ve been caught out by not having a contract but it’s unusual for a genuine tradesman not to mention disposal of waste . He probably made sure the work came to £5k and sod anything else . You’ll have to learn from this .

If it’s hardcore you might be able to advertise it as free to collect!

I think in this case you are. I would expect the waste disposal to be a separate scope item to the building work. When tescos drop off your online shoppng they don't empty the bins on the way back.

Surely it's only commercial waste for the builder, for the home owner their old patio is household waste.

This sort of thing should have been agreed in advance and included in the contract and price.

it’s not so you are stuck for it

Id give him £4k with rest on completion.

If you have space for the skip, I would go down that path. It won’t be £300 for 30 mins- as others say it will be a one off fee (cost depends on how big the skip is but in the region of £300) and you can usually have it for up to a week. Filling a skip is deeply satisfying and if you are not in a rush ie have all week then you can take it slowly and might even enjoy it. If you’re paying £5k for the work then the extra £300 or so is not wildly over budget. You’ll love having a newly-modelled garden so once you wave goodbye to the skip you will hopefully be feeling much better about the whole experience…

More fool you for not getting a contract. You’re lucky he didn’t down tools halfway through building the patio and saying that it will be another £5k to finish. What would you have done then?

It doesn't work like that.

It's a fairly obscure part of the Waste Regs but it is because it has been generated as part of a paid job. Same as according to the letter of the law your gardener can't put clippings from your garden in your garden rubbish bin.

In reality in both cases LA's are normally fairly relaxed if you dump this type of waste once as it could be DIY. It's when people start turning up on a monthly basis claiming they have redone their own personal kitchen/bathroom yet again and no of course they weren't working for a client that they start asking alot of questions.

Yes, and IME also if your bin is weirdly heavy week on week!

I was just about to suggest this too. List it on FB Marketplace - I've done this successfully several times. Everyone is a winner: you get rid of your waste, somebody else gets some free hardcore for their job, and you've recycled.

I agree that you need to chalk this up to experience. Most trades will say if the quote includes removal of waste. If there is no mention, assume it doesn't/ask for clarification. As there was no mention, you didn't ask, and you were needing to keep the price lower than perhaps it would normally cost, it is a fair assumption that this is something that's been pruned to stay within your budget.
FWIW I have a trade and don't include removal of waste, but I also state this very clearly at the time of quoting to avoid exactly this situation. It's much better and avoids any bad feeling (on either side!) when everyone is clear what the transaction involves. I also try to give the customer an idea of how much waste will be generated so they can plan, but my jobs rarely produce even 1/4 skip's worth. Most often it's just a rubble sack or two. I don't have space to store up enough bags to make a commercial trip to the tip worthwhile, which is why I don't remove it as a service. I also can't be bothered with the extra faff of a waste carriage licence.

I think you’ll have to chalk it up to a lesson learned.

Skips are usually hired for a two week period, my local company is usually happy to extend if needed.

Or, do you have a local builders merchant/aggregates supplier. My local one does a “muck away” service. Large lorry with a grabber that took away all the concrete I’d had dug up from the garden. Think it cost around £140 for them to take it away - they then just break it up to be sold on as hardcore.

Always ask for any building quote to include removal and diaposal of any rubbish. Lesson learnt.