To think that my mother is making a mistake

[AnnaQuayInTheUk]

My mum is in her 80s, very capable and competent. A few years ago she moved in with her partner and let out her home. She had one set of tenants for the first few years, no problems. They moved out in the summer so she now has new tenants. All done through a local letting agent.

Her bungalow is in very good condition, well maintained but slightly dated. Since the new tenants have moved in they've asked for some minor changes. - bathroom cabinet to be moved to a different wall, internal glazed door to be changed to a solid one - which mum has happily agreed to and paid for

It transpires that they have now proposed (and mum has agreed) to replace all the kitchen cabinet doors at their expense, not mums. The doors are fine, solid wood, nothing is broken but they are dated.

I have no idea how much this is going to cost the tenants. The kitchen is quite big with a few integrated appliances, so it won't be cheap. The kitchen isn't going to be updated in any other way apart from being painted a colour of the tenants choice which my mum has agreed to pay for as it hasn't been done for a few years

Obviously it's none of my business, but I don't think my mum should be agreeing to the tenants choosing and paying for the new kitchen doors. What happens if mum wants them to leave shortly afterwards if she needs to return to the property? Would she have to repay them the money for the doors? I really think she's making a mistake.

So
YABU - it's none of my business and I should let mum get on with it
YANBU. - you need to try to persuade her not to allow this

I can't vote for either of those options.

What you need to do is find out the facts and read through any contracts regarding this.

Is this in England?

The glass door is totally understandable if they have reason to be concerned about breakage (kids, unsteady gait etc).

I wouldn’t want them messing with the kitchen bevause they could cause more damage than the value of their deposit.

I don’t think it would be material if she wanted to finish the tenancy though? It’d be their loss (presuming no damage done).

Yes, it's in England

Your DM can just say no to any changes in the kitchen

I imagine it's a fairly standard letting contract. My mum will - understandably - get defensive if I ask to see it. As I said, she's very capable but she does have a tendency to not be able to see the house letting as a business arrangement. For example, she pays a hefty management fee but then encourages her tenants to email her direct with issues, which she then has to pass on to the letting agency anyway.

She should document any agreement in writing (doesn't need to be a formal contract, email will do), that they will do the new doors to at least [specified] standard/quality, and that any improvements/changes that they make at their own cost (only permitted with her written agreement) are at their request and for their convenience, and that no costs are recoverable at the end of the tenancy. Then let her crack on.

Thanks @WrylyAmused. That sounds like a good way forward

Paint the solid wood kitchen cupboards and replace handles. Can look totally transformed without any structural work on tenants part. Mum can arrange and pay while having the kitchen walls etc painted. I wouldnt have tenants dojng anything structural at all TBH, it could cause issues down the line.

As long as there is agreement in what happens when they leave it should be fine. Will they keep her doors somewhere warm and dry, then reinstate them? Will they leave the ones they are buying?

If she's paying a management fee to an estate agent she could take their advice on this. As a landlord myself, my concern would be that the tenants would dispose of my cupboard doors and then take the replacement doors which they've paid for when they leave. I'd only allow it if there was somewhere warm and dry within the property where my doors could be stored.

Your Mum tells the tenants that the old doors are to be kept safe and replaced when they vacate the property at THEIR expense.

When the time comes, they'll probably ask your Mum to keep their doors to avoid the hassle.

There are so many doors (maybe 18?) that I can't think where they could go in the property. It's not like you can just prop them up in the corner.

I don't understand why you are even thinking about getting involved.

Capable adult manages her own let property. None of your business

If your mum is capable and competent why are you wanting to get involved?

Yes I think she is. Maybe she should have offered to paint the kitchen cabinet doors if they are very dated. I would not allow a tenant to change anything material.

I think you should tell your mum to say no. She’s still thinking like this is a home not a business- which is why small landlords can be tricky. If she doesn’t feel the kitchen needs replacing, she should only agree to this if she’s happy that in 6 months time they move out and she finds it’s ruined the kitchen and she has to pay for an entirely new kitchen to be put in before new tenants can be found- she needs to budget for a completely new kitchen and 2 or more months with no rent while work is done.

Tell her to start thinking like a landlord. Landlords replace kitchens. Not tenants.

I have sympathy for the tenants. It’s really hard renting and not being able to feel like your home is your home. They’re willing to spend their own money on improving where they live, I think it shows they’re going to be long term tenants. This is surely a good thing?

I have every sympathy with tenants @PineappleMelon - I've been a tenant in the past and both our sons are currently in rental properties. It just feels like this is crossing some sort of line.

Good question! And one I'm asking myself. But she raised it and told me that's what she had agreed to, but then seemed to be doubting whether she should have done.

I understand why you are concerned and I am sure that you have your mum’s interest at heart. That said, I am the same age and perfectly capable of making those sort of decisions. I expect that your mum has good tenants because she obviously cares about them. Many friends of mine in their 90s are living independently. Like me they appreciate the concerns of their family, but prefer not to be ‘managed’

@PineappleMelon- the landlord is in their 80s, at the risk of being horribly morbid about the OPs mother, how long term will this be ? The house may well have to be sold to pay for care or if the mother passes. They saw the property when they rented it and they’ve asked for multiple changes.

OP say no, if they don’t like it they can find another property but I would worry about them spending a lot of their own money on your mother’s house and then it being difficult if you need to sell the property in the future. Particularly if they take out a solid but dated kitchen and put in something that’s cheap and a bit shit.

Tell your mum to say no. If she wouldn’t pay to put in a new kitchen herself, then it doesn’t need doing.

If there is nowhere to store them then my advice to your Mum would be to refuse to let the tenants replace them. She doesn't want to be in a situation where they move out and she has to pay to replace the doors again because they've ditched hers and have taken theirs with them (which they would be within their rights to do). Your Mum may wish to consider replacing the doors herself or getting a professional to paint the existing ones if the kitchen is dated and this type of update could help retain good tenants. She should be able to get tax relief on that spend too.

It's tempting to be accommodating to tenants who want to replace the landlords stuff with their own, but your Mum has no idea how long they will stay for so she needs to make sure that her asset isn't degraded by the changes. Replacing a glass wall for a solid one is fine, because that work will stay and hopefully improves safety/privacy/energy efficiency. Removing things like cupboard doors, beds, sofas etc so the tenant can bring their own is more challenging because your Mum will be faced with the cost of replacing them when that tenant moves out. I've been asked in the past to remove sofas or beds before, and the options are dispose of them and replace for new tenants in future, or pay to to store them, so I've always said no.

I don’t think them wanting to spaff money on kitchen doors suggests good long term tenant necessarily. Not unless money is no object to these tenants. It’s not very financially sensible to pay to replace doors if you could be evicted within 18 months to 2 years. Not unless one of the tenants is a kitchen fitter! I can understand why they might want to do that, but to me it sort of suggests a lack of realism about renting and the landlord/ tenant relationship and respective responsibilities.

Anyway, maybe show your mum this thread. She might react better to strangers’ views than to yours.

This.
The tenants rented it as it is and it should stay as it is. Tenants diy can be a nightmare if the work isn't up to scratch and as others have also said, they may want to take new doors etc with them.

You can get replacement kitchen cabinet doors quite easily and cheaply, made to measure and with good quality wood. My concern would be, what will happen to the existing cupboard doors, will they be thrown away? I'm assuming the tenants will leave the new cupboard doors on the cabinets if they were to move out.

Perhaps your mother (or yourself) could pop round and just do a quick inspection of the works they're planning on doing, to make sure it's all done properly.

They sound like reasonable requests and, honestly, if they were planning on moving out soon they wouldn't be bothering to update the place, would they? I'd say, if your mum is happy about it all, there's no reason to stress. Sounds fine to me.