Drs' payrise should be funded by cutting 23.7% govt pension contribution

[eyeses]

The Telegraph today suggests that the Government could fund a significant payrise to Resident Doctors by reducing our surprisingly high payments into their pensions.

"Yet what is often forgotten is that these doctors enjoy bumper pensions worth close to 75pc of their salaries in retirement – and which are guaranteed to rise with inflation each year.
Doctors enjoy index-linked, taxpayer-funded “defined benefit” schemes, many of which pay a proportion of the recipient’s final salary from the day they retire.
Under the NHS scheme, staff contribute between 5.2pc and 12.5pc of their salaries while the state contributes a vast 23.7pc each year.
By comparison, private sector workers, who are almost all enrolled in “defined contribution” pensions where the value of the final pot depends on investment performance, receive a contribution of just 3pc from their employer.
The NHS is paying out nearly £1bn a month in staff pensions, with almost 2,000 staff receiving pensions of more than £100,000 annually – a figure that has more than doubled in a year."

AIBU - No, junior Drs deserve that we fund a big pay rise and huge pension
IANBU - We pay far too much into Dr's pensions and they want the money now

What Resident Doctors don't want you to know about their pay

All the posters talking about public sector workers being underpaid and the higher than average pension being the reward for that, wouldn't you prefer to not be underpaid and not have the extra pension? You seem to be saying the same as me but perhaps at the same time disagreeing.

To the midwife and teacher who are not paying into their pension at all, are you therefore losing the employer's contribution too?
Surely a more normalised (higher) wage and a more normalised (lower) pension would be better than that.

As many posters have pointed out, everyone's wages have been eroded. Doctors are very special in many ways, but that is not one of them.

I think this goes for all public sector pensions. Cut those to what the rest of the market is doing and pay appropriately. You can’t have your cake and eat it.

In what way is a pay rise a pay cut? In the public sector where people think if it’s below inflation it doesn’t count!!!

But there are so many more people applying for the jobs than there are jobs. Why should we be bothered if people leave? We can get more people in.

As I previously said the key to this is increasing the number of resident places, not paying overworked junior medics who are already in post more. The public purse has paid for all these medical graduates. Any extra funds ( some of which could come from cutting overtime payments ) should go towards creating extra posts for unemployed medics.
More medics in the system would mean less hours per medic and therefore better working conditions for medics.
If I have to be treated by a junior doctor, I would prefer it to be one who hasn't just done a double shift because of insufficient staffing.

@CurlyKoalie I completely agree.

@eyeses It’s foolish not to pay into a workplace pension where the employer puts in a stonking amount. Also I think a second pension is mandatory now. An employer contribution is a gift and tax not paid on it so it’s utterly ridiculous not to pay in. Obviously they are expecting the rest of us to pay pension credits and benefits when they need money upon retirement.

I think most people accept a below inflation "pay rise" is in real terms a pay cut.

I really don't understand the Govt, a multi year pay deal is the right thing to do, esp politically, does he really want a Doctors strike in the run up to the next GE ?

Acting tough didn't help the Tories and it wont help Labour either, as seen at todays PMQs and will be reflected in the headlines.

Its almost as if Labour want to be out of office for another 14 years.

The public aren’t supporting this strike though. Greed and upsetting patients are the main reasons. Yes, the well off strike now. No one else can afford to. I read doctors have been on strike for over 50 days in 3 years. No wonder waiting lists barely move. It’s shocking that the public is head to ransom.

I think you’ll find Wes Streeting is one of the most popular cabinet ministers. People think he’s doing a good job (unlike most other ministers) and one of the main reasons is that he’s prepared to stand up and tell the Doctors that they’re not getting any more money. Every time he stands up to doctors he gets more popular.

And ‘everyone accepts below inflation pay rises is a pay cut’? In the public sector maybe, but as someone who’s spent most of their life in the private sector this is a totally foreign concept. We’re grateful to get anything. Yes it’s in real terms less money but this country is getting poorer, and expectations of those employed by the state ought adapt accordingly.

Let’s consider the whole package indeed. I like to remind private sector employees on a similar level of seniority in their field to me about this when they mention their bonuses. DH works for a major retailer so also gets staff discount as well as a five figure bonus. Friends in banks also benefited from lower mortgages.

Bonuses and staff discounts in HE? Hardly.

Seriously rather than underpaying them, then complaining further about their pensions.

Just let them go private.

I'm sure they'll earn enough so they can fund their own pensions then.🙄

And compare job security too. How many redundancy rounds are there for doctors? What proportion of doctors have experienced redundancy in comparison with a senior post in professional services? The difference would be laughable!

@Maray1967 that would be the kind of performance bonus that wouldn’t be payable at all if the business was doing badly, right? Like in circumstances where an idiotic government stymied business growth with ludicrous, punitive tax policy?

And let’s also compare rates of redundancy, dismissal, job security, availability of overtime pay and “unsociable hours” payments, shall we? As a lawyer (married to a consultant) I had a similar period of training to DH, but have never received a penny in overtime, nor have I ever worked only my contracted hours.

More power to Wes Streeting’s elbow. His biggest mistake was giving in last time - and this was entirely foreseeable.

And ‘everyone accepts below inflation pay rises is a pay cut’? In the public sector maybe, but as someone who’s spent most of their life in the private sector this is a totally foreign concept. We’re grateful to get anything. Yes it’s in real terms less money but this country is getting poorer, and expectations of those employed by the state ought adapt accordingly

This is not at all universal in the private sector! I have never accepted a below inflation pay rise in my whole career. You should value yourself more.

Well post financial crisis my employer went through incredibly tough times. We got rid of 2/3rds of all employees and those remaining received no pay rises at all
for 5 years. We were very glad to have a job and there were no new opportunities in the industry so there was no arguing. if your employer can’t afford a pay rise they can’t afford a pay rise.

I'm not saying it never happens but your comment implies that it's the norm. If a company is unable to maintain it's cost base in line with inflation then it's not going to be around long anyway so I'd start looking for another job anyway.

I don’t know. I never compare a pay rise with inflation. Thankfully my industry has recovered, and if I want a pay rise and I don’t think my employer is being generous enough I’ll change job. They know what so they ensure they’ll pay what the market supports.

Thats why it sounds so odd to hear doctors threaten to leave if they don’t get a pay rise, when there are loads of people lining up to replace them. Where’s the incentive to raise doctor’s pay? There isn’t one.

So increase their wages by c20% to equalise on both counts then?

Well that would true, though other HCPs have faced redundancy.

However, a senior manager/accountant/lawyer isn't going to save my child or or partners life.

Plus anyone leaving school can choose to go into Healthcare and have this job security if its so attractive?

No they don't, because a: they ve not the exam grades and b: the private sector can pay way more, at senior level, than a Consultant would get.

Avg nhs consultant pay 110k to 140k, average accountancy partner pay 400k to 800k (big 4) smaller firms - tax partner 100k to 150k.

There have been many many years where the private sector got good parishes and bonuses and public sector pay was capped sharply. You've conveniently forgotten that

I dont think you are up to date with the difference between those who are leaving and those replacing them. Its not like for like

You focus on Dr's and vacancies but atm many trusts have recruitment freezes and those who have recruited, have gone for exp overseas staff.

Its widely acknowledged the NHS has huge shortages of Doctors, along side many other HCP roles.

There simply isn't the funding to recruit what is required and the ones needed are experienced Doctors, not the newly trained.

Yes private sector pay has risen in recent years more than doctors pay, and yet we still have so many people applying for each post. Pay doesn’t need to rise for doctors. Why not hold off on pay rises and use the money saved to increase positions? This could be an argument made by the BMA. It’s would make sense. But they choose not to.

Yes because if a doctor hadn’t gone into medicine they’d be a big 4 partner. Of course! It’s such an arrogant position to take! I got straight As, went into professional services. Out earn doctors and most consultants. The skills needed in my role are very different to the average doctor.