To ask which historical crossroads you wonder about?

[HoneyParsnipSoup]

For me it’s wondering what would’ve happened had Catherine of Aragon had a son and Henry hadn’t divorced her. Country may well be totally different.

I was going to say this - if the Normans hadn't landed in 1169

Also, what if the 1916 Rising had succeeded. A few little tweaks could have made all the difference (like taking Dublin Castle instead of the GPO).

Or the 1798 rebellion... So many turning points

Or poor Michael Collins being sent by Dev to sign the treaty alone, in there among all those career politicians and coming back with a partitioned Ireland. And although I doubt it would have changed much, if he hadn't subsequently been assassinated

Enjoying the thread OP. Thank you!

mine would be:
If boudica had not been caught

if the white ship hadn’t sunk. Or if they had stood behind the daughter to be queen. Was that Maud or Matilda?

if monotheism hadn’t taken off

if we never had the Magna Carta- I think we would have gone through revolution like the French and Russians.

if Karl Marx never said/wrote what he did

The USSR defeated the Germans because they were willing to accept very high casualty rates. They were also supplied with huge amounts of materiel from USA.
In 1945 only UK and Germany had jet engines. America was 2 years behind us.
Over Korea USA took many casualties in propeller aircraft from jet powered MiGs.

I know men famously think about Rome all the time. That confused me because I will be honest I never ever think about previous historical crossroads.

But I do spend a lot of time thinking about out current crossroad.

I’m missing your point there. What has the USSR to do with it?
But more than that, I wondered what you meant in your previous related post, where you said Ireland declaring war on the Axis powers along with GB would have put her in a strong negotiating position afterwards.
Negotiating for what?

I think people always overlook how utterly impoverished Ireland was after winning independence, not that she was so great even beforehand of course.
The population had not regained those huge losses caused by the Famine, emigration was rife, and as the counties constituting the new Republic had never been industrialised (unlike Belfast), there wasn't a great deal to build on as farms lost ‘spare’ sons to emigration, even to the British Army.
(The one great and essential programme accomplished was for electricity, with the building of the Shannon dam.
You imagine the country flung itself on tne ground after that, completely knackered)

Ireland didn’t inherit any useful social infrastructure from colonialism, except in the form of outline ( Law, civil service)
. In the crushing pressure of repeated lethal outbreaks of TB in the 20s, 30s and 40s, and high infant mortality irrespective of epidemics, the running of hospitals and related services was handed over wholesale to religious orders, with lingering side effects everyone knows about now.

What I’m saying is that Ireland, though not inherently keen to back Britain in most of her endeavours now they’d been ejected, was not in any position to declare war on anybody. There were not remotely sufficient resources for such an armed response.

As for supporting the British war effort, far more of this happened in practice than was admitted at the time ( for political and pragmatic reasons, Ireland having only barely got through the brutal Civil War, and feelings ran very high still)
But British and Allied aircraft were accorded all (or most) necessary facility, and the Navy was given whatever support was feasible when it was needed. Weather reports and shipping news were shared.

The huge bugbear is of course the fact that bloody De Valera expressed condolences where few others would have done.
This is woven into a huge imaginary tapestry depicting Ireland’s supposed thoroughgoing support for Nazi Germany.
This Dev blunder often appears to be the only thing many British people know about how Ireland spent ‘The Emergency’, and it has poisoned that well.

That's just WW2 of course. We’ve 1847, 1690, and a huge selection of other dates available!

Yes Matilda and he did say she was his heir was it Henry 2nd?

I saw monotheism mentioned above - yes, imagine a world without all the massacres/atrocities committed in the name of God

Ooh yes, the White Ship’s a good one. Poor Matilda, such bad timing to have been away on the Continent!
Still, her son came to the throne and really shook some action at last. He was a chip off the old block. Imperial dreams, and the foundations for the Plantagenet dynasty.

I was more thinking of the threats that came after. Because, and I am being facetious , maybe not enough people died in the war without nuclear weapons after all. Maybe I should have said not inventing weapons but that would be very unrealistic.

Henry II was Matilda’s son. This was Henry I, who’d been extraordinarily loth to name any heir, only naming Matilda as he was dying.

Deutschland 83 was a wonderful series that dramatised events leading up to this situation, there was a major NATO exercise planned, Abel Archer, the Russians had got wind of it but didn't realise that it was not a real invasion plan. It was scarey at the time, the reality has only become more generally known in the last few years.

Ah

I always get my bloody Henry’s mixed up

Yes Henry 2nd Eleanor of Aquitaine

Negotiation for more extensive home rule, of course. I have zero personal feelings on Irish independence (I just see it as nothing to do with me, and having no bearing on my life), but I think objectively the fight for independence was so protracted as Ireland failed to understand the way the British government psyche and thought threats (bombs, hunger strike, civil unrest) would force them to concede; when that’s the precise opposite of what the British do when faced with threats of violence. The British government concede things where they feel they owe people because they don’t like to be in debt to others, and Ireland joining the Allies would’ve been such a stunning public contribution that I think the British govt would’ve been forced to renegotiate after such a public sacrifice. I think it would’ve had the potential to heal a lot of wounds and reset the relationship entirely but equally I understand why it just wasn’t feasible.

Ultimately the above could be baloney as we will never know what may or may not have happened but I think there would’ve been potential to leapfrog the Troubles entirely, albeit for a heavy human price.

I often wonder about this. Edward VIII was a Nazi sympathiser. Would Britain have declared war against Germany had he been on the throne? Or would the war have followed a different path?
Scary to think how major historical events can turn on a sixpence.

I think so as the treaty would’ve prevailed, and Edward was so nuts I doubt anybody would’ve let him exercise his Royal prerogative. I loved the scene in the Crown where Elizabeth summons him for a bollocking over his little love letters to Hitler.

Or even I’d Henry’s brother hadn’t died so Henry would never have become King.

We’d probably all be Catholics.

The death of the Labour leader John Smith sticks in my mind, I was so shocked I phoned their head office to offer my condolences. A long time ago , when we had a fair few decent and principled people on both sides of the political spectrum.

I think had she lived there are some interesting what if’s.
Would she have remained the people’s princess? The media were beginning to turn on her.
Would the public have accepted Camilla as Queen consort?
Would Harry have married Megan and would he still be in the Royal family?
Would the Royal family be more popular or less if she was alive? After her death there seemed to be a lot of criticism towards them.

Do you know despite loving history that is one scenario ve never wondered about, going to be thinking about it a lot

If plastic hadn’t been invented.

If John had never met Paul, and Mick had never met Keith, I think they all would have musical success because of the talent, but both partnerships had that indefinable "ir"

If 9/11 had never happened. What a shitshow that started.

Joan is great in Land of the Pharoahs!