Have I committed fraud?

[Boxedin2431]

I am a single mum to three.

I have a UC review and bank statements are due.
I have three bank accounts and two I have not declared.
The two bank accounts I have not declared get child maintenance paid in from my children’s dads, respectively.
I have not had any other income apart from the maintenance and some help from my dad sometimes.
i transfer money between all three.
Two bank accounts are in my birth name, the third is in my middle name.

Am I in trouble when I declare them?

I only have UC, child benefit into the one I have declared.
i have child maintenance into one bank account and another child maintenance into the other bank account.

Shall I include 6 month statement for all three?

Yes, I agree, with the caveat that if, at any time, the total in the accounts exceeded £6k, there may have been an overpayment of UC.

Even then, I've known them disregard it if it's only for a few days.

The DWP can be surprisingly flexible and pragmatic about this sort of stuff. I once had a client who'd inherited over £20k and she gave her adult kids £7.5k each. As the amount she gave away brought the balance to just below the £6k at which they start deducting some of the benefits, I thought they'd regard it as "intentional deprivation of capital" and treat her as though she still had the money, ie stop her benefits completely because she had over the £16k upper limit.

They bloody didn't though, the investigating officer must have been very sympathetic and understanding. (Client genuinely didn't know about the deprivation rules, and was absolutely shitting herself.)

No, it's not fraud. Benefit fraud is claiming benefits you're not entitled to on purpose. OP has not done this. She has claimed UC which the DWP has calculated she's entitled to - Child Maintenance is disregarded as income for UC and this is the only other income she's in receipt of.

what utter bullshit. Child maintenance payments are not included when calculating your Universal Credit award. if you receive child maintenance, it will not reduce or count as income for Universal Credit.

you do have to declare it though as part of your financial transparency.

Absolutely!

I once had a client who was getting 3 x £3k, so £9k a month, from her very rich ex. She was still entitled to UC, and she got a fair old chunk of that as one of the children had a learning disability, got DLA , and mum got carer's allowance + UC.

That's vanishingly rare though, not only had I never come across another case like but neither had any of my colleagues and between us we had over 100 years of welfare rights experience!

I would say send them the bank statements, without a further statement, just with your claim number and let them tell you what is what.

Another poster who fails to grasp what fraud is.

If the OP acquired title to benefit, or increased the benefit they were paid, by concealing assets or not disclosing earned/unearned income that is fraud.

If they've failed/forgotten to disclose bank accounts handling disregarded income then there's no fraud.

Yep. They really aren't interested in cash gifts every now and then.

Just today we got a £100 cash gift from a charity who is supporting us (they have given every family they support £100 for Christmas) and UC will not care if they see it it in a review appointment (though I've never actually had one).

Maintenance isn't taken into account when it comes to calculating benefits.

But yes, you need to declare all accounts as you could have other sources of income going into those for all they know.

Former friend of mine who claimed benefits back in the days of Incapacity Benefit had two bank accounts. One was for her claim, the other was for monies she obtained from elsewhere including from a sugar daddy. She got caught in the end and done for fraud. They seem to have a way of findng out, I never dobbed her in it but it did affect our friendship, which came to and end as a result of her activities

That's the sort of thinking that led to the Child Support Agency SNAFU.

Most maintenance is pretty small amounts and often has to be prised from the fingers of unwilling fathers.

Yes, "they" could. I'm "they" btw. Unless OP has over £6k in undeclared assets, nothing is going to happen!

@LakieLady it's pretty difficult to fall foul of deprivation of capital rules if you don't know the rules exist....

No, you have not committed fraud. Simply add the statements from the undeclared bank accounts to your review. You said you move money around between them, so they will ask about that anyway.
Child maintenance is disregarded and not classed as income so you don't need to declare it anyway.
Cash gifts are classed as capital, not income. You only need to declare them if they push your capital over £6k at the end of the monthly assessment period. Paying off debts is not seen as deprivation of capital, so if you had £10k for a few days, then as long as you state it was for paying off your loan, it will be fine.
Both CM and cash gifts are only an issue if they put your total capital (and that is across all bank accounts) over £6k.
The person doing your review will see the accounts you did not declare to be under the capital threshold and also be money from CM. Neither affect your benefits, so no fraud committed.
You will be fine. Just be transparent going forward.

This place is an absolute cesspit for benefit "advice". I saw someone tell a vulnerable poster that she would be classed as living as a married couple because she makes a cup of tea for her boyfriend when he visits.
Seriously, unless you have masochistic tendencies, post on the benefits sub Reddit. There are past and present DWP staff there that can give you accurate advice and put your mind at rest and the real bonus is that inaccurate info, judgements, and benefit bashing is against the rules and quickly zapped.

Yes it is. Whether they just focus on undeclared bank accounts I don ‘t know but child support from a parent is not taken into account.

Why is one account in your middle name? Do you use that as your preferred name? If not, that is a bit weird.

I don't think it'll affect your benefits but you shoud declare it. You should declare all finances when dealing with UC.

CM is disregarded for benefits purposes.
Justvtell them about the other accounts and as long as they are able to view what’s coming in and out you’ll be fine.
There’s so much mis information and scare mongering on Mumsnet when it comes to benefits it’s ridiculous

I have just had a review, just be open and honest when you have your phone call and tell you have another two accounts, my husband forgot he has another account and they asked about money being transferred to that account that he hadn’t declared and all they asked for were statements for the undeclared account going back five months and to upload on the to do list and that was then end of it

Dud you open the accounts before being on universal credit??. Did you have the accounts when you applied for uc and not declare them?. If you opened it during the period of getting uc then there is nothing wrong

She would still have to declare them in a review though.

You have not committed fraud as the only money has been child maintenance and gifts from a relative, all of which are disregarded by UC. Just let them know about the accounts you hold now and let them see the bank statements, explain what the money is (ie maintenance and gifts from family), and it will be fine.

https://www.entitledto.co.uk/help/benefits-charity

https://www.gov.uk/child-maintenance-service#:~:text=Child%20maintenance%20payments%20will%20not%20affect%20any%20benefits%20that%20you%20and%20your%20children%20get%2C%20including%20Universal%20Credit.%20You%20will%20not%20have%20to%20pay%20tax%20on%20them.

I have multiple accounts. Some use initials, some are in my maiden name. One is retained from when I first opened a bank account in the 1980s with an attached regular savings account and one is a current account with savings account that both pay interest. Plus one every day account. All DDs are paid from accounts that are only ever paid into. That way I can guarantee sufficient cash to pay bills and a safety net for unexpected expenditure. I never have to worry. This is priceless. If the safety net is hit the everyday spending is reduced over time until it is built up again. I can’t get credit or loans.

Works for me. Only an issue for DWP in the gap when I claimed UC when STBEX stopped paying voluntary SM before court ordered MPS and for STBEX trying to get his head around Form E disclosure. As he is able to take out loans and credit at the drop of a hat due to earning he thought budgeting was unnecessarily complicated.

Why would I organise my finances in a way that benefits DWP for a claim of less than a year or a STBEX pending financial settlement that doesn’t work for me?

It doesn’t matter what account is what and where the cash is from.

If it’s disregarded income/cash, then it will be. By them.

If they start finding undeclared accounts, then they investigate.

Just tell them of all your accounts and go from there. 🤷‍♀️

I’m really confused. You don’t declare bank accounts when you apply for UC. You just tell them your income and savings and send any proof they ask for.

The review (which is totally normal and standard) is when you declare accounts and let them look at them. You haven’t hidden anything. It’s now your review so you upload the 4 months of statements for all accounts you have (including PayPal and things like that). They look, and they only care about undeclared income. They don’t care about child maintenance or any payments from family which are gifts. They won’t care about your maintenance payments, they won’t care about any payments from any family who have helped you financially.

All they care about is applicable undeclared income and savings. Your accounts will show that you don’t have any. You haven’t commuted any fraud. Don’t worry. Just give them what they’ve asked for, don’t upload more unless they ask for statements going further back.