HR advice please

[Courtnay]

I work for a business.
For the past 4 years, I have known that my annual leave has been miscalculated and I have been given less than I am entitled to.
I raised this with the then manager 4 years ago. I stated that my AL calculations were wrong and told him what I had calculated they should be. He told me I was wrong and he had calculated them correctly. I knew hd was wrong. I raised this with him several times over, face to face, and each time he told me I was wrong. He became frustrated with me and made this clear to me, even getting blatantly exasperated with me, and eventually this made me stop raising it with him. We don't have an internal HR department. The business uses an external one that they pay for, and only the manager can access it. As an employee, I don't even know what the HR company is called, or where it's based or how to get in contact with them - we aren't told.
1 year ago that manager left, and I immediately went to talk to the new manager. She told me she was aware of me raising the issue of my AL hours and that the previous manager had told her I was wrong and that he had confirmed to her that I was on the correct AL entitlement, and she told me she had nothing further to add because he had told her there was nothing to correct re my AL entitlement.
I raised it with her again a few months later, and again she referred to the previous manager's statement that my AL was correct and I was not entitled to any extra AL hours.
Fast forward to now, and the current manager has been on an HR course and has learnt that my AL hours are indeed wrong, and that I was right all along, I am on less AL hours than I am entitled to. The previous manager miscalculated my entitlement by 40 hours deficit per year. So I have spent 4 years losing out on 40 hours a year of AL entitlement. The current manager has now fully admitted that my AL was/is wrong, and accepts that the previous manager was wrong in his advice to her about me.
Where I need advice is, my bosses are stating that they are only willing to go back 2 years to recompense me. They will not go back the full 4 years. Yet I've been raising this gor 4 years. They are telling me that HR law states they only have to go back 2 years.
I am really upset about this. I have been told for 4 years that I am wrong. And now they've found out I'm right, they are only willing to give me the AL I'm owed for 2 years, not the full 4 years. I've been told I can take it as AL, or be paid for it (I'd get less after tax/NI) or half and half. Up to me what I choose, but only 2 years will be given to me.
AIBU to find this grossly unfair?
I work really hard in my role. I work through all my unpaid lunchbreaks and never walk out at the time my employed hours stop, I always stay another 30 - 60 minutes late to deal with the workload and I never claim OT for this, and my bosses know this.
Yet they aren't willing to acknowledge their 4 year mistake.
It has left me feeling that my position is untenable as I feel there must be a sheer lack of respect towards me.
But I love my job and don't want to leave.
I feel really upset over this!

Hey so sorry this happened to
you. Ring ACAS for advice, if your contract says your entitlement and they failed to meet their contractual obligation, and you met yours then there should at least maybe a way of compensating you. Hope you have emails to show how long you’ve been raising the issue. Best wishes.

There is no such thing as 'HR law'. Also, HR are there to protect the company from the employees not the other way around.

Join a union for next time and for now contact ACAS who will inform you of your rights and may help you to negotiate a settlement.

'Also, HR are there to protect the company from the employees not the other way around.'
Is that right? I thought HR was there to protect the employee?!
And please could you elaborate when you say there is no HR law? My manager is telling me their HR company have said it's the law to only go back 2 years "because the law has changed" (to quote my manager).

Hope you have emails to show how long you’ve been raising the issue. Best wishes.
This is where I'm kicking myself. I have no email evidence. All my conversations were F2F.
Also, my contract states the wrong AL hours. It states the under calculated hours.

When you say wrong what do you mean? Is it not as per the companies standard AL or less than the statutory minimum?

The legalities are different depending which it is.

HR aren’t there to protect you, no. But what they will do is make sure management follow the laws, treat employees fairly, to make sure the company isn’t sued 😅 at least that has better outcomes for the employee.

I don’t quite get it. If you’ve got a contract with the incorrect AL on it, then isn’t that the correct AL in legal terms ie. they don’t have to give you more AL that what’s in your contract?

The poster who said there's no such thing as 'HR law' was just being snarky/pedantic OP, of course there are laws governing things like holiday leave and pay, it's just these laws are usually called 'employment law' not 'HR law'. But it's clear from your post what you meant. Unfortunately it is however correct that legally you can usually only claim for 2 years worth of backdated/ underpaid holiday pay. I understand you have been querying this for more than 2 years but unfortunately in hindsight you probably should have escalated above your manager's head by putting in a formal written grievance or going to ACAS - it's not up to your employer to provide an HR department to help you do this sadly. Not blaming you as people don't necessarily know about these things until they have to. You can maybe try leaning on their goodwill by emphasising what a dedicated and hard working employee you are, and it's definitely worth emphasising that you have repeatedly raised this, but ultimately if a tribunal would only award you two years worth of wages they may not feel they need to do more.

There are lots of scenarios where it's very possible for an employer to miscalculate holiday pay whatever the contract says, there's plenty of case law / examples of where people have successfully sued their employer for back pay of holiday. The most common is part-time or flexible workers, particularly variable hours/zero hours/shift workers, where the contract will usually say they get the pro-rata'd equivalent holiday allowance of what a full time worker gets but that isn't always straight forward to calculate what this is for someone on a rotating shift pattern or someone who works different amounts of time on different days or similar, especially around bank holiday allowances. Or the other thing that can happen is the contract erroneously states an amount of holiday pay that's actually below the legal minimum, even if the employee signed and agreed to a lesser amount the employer still has to pay them the legal minimum including back pay once it's discovered...

OK. My company gives me 6 weeks of AL a year.
I work 2 days a week year round.
My company has been calculating my 6 weeks of AL entitlement on those 2 days a week. So they have been giving me 12 days a year of AL. I have been doing this for 10 years.
However, 4 years ago I started working an additional 2 days a week for 39 weeks of the year, term time only. These extra 2 days are in my contract as permanent hours.
I was told for the past 4 years that my additional 2 days a week for 39 weeks of the year did not accrue any additional AL. It was this that I contested. I said my increase in hours per annum should give me a higher AL entitlement per annum.
I was told I was wrong and that my extra 2 days a week did not accrue any AL entitlement because I only worked them for 39 weeks of the year.
Every time I raised it, I was told it was obviously complicated for me to understand and I was shut down.
So for 4 years I have been working Mondays & Tuesdays year round, and in addition to that I have been working Wednesdays and Thursdays for 39 weeks of the year (term time), but I have only been receiving AL entitlement for the Mondays and Tuesdays, and no AL entitlement at all for the Wednesdays and Thursdays.
I'm sorry I don't know what AL entitlement is company and what AL entitlement is statutory.
Thank you for trying to help.

But for what time frame are people compensated?
Is the maximum 2 years backpay correct?

This applies to me. Please could you see my post above, in response to helpfulperson?

Definitely ring ACAS as soon as possible, OP!

PP are correct that HR are there to see that the company doesn’t get into trouble - that it obeys the law and doesn’t let management screw employees illegally is part of that. A good company will invest in its employees and development opportunities, Employee Assistance Programmes, etc may be part of the remit but never forget the primary purpose.

It can be difficult to reach ACAS. Times are not easy right now but if you can spare the ££ to consult an employment solicitor that is another way to get your questions cleared up, easily and quickly.

I join the outrage on your behalf and I hope you get satisfaction

It’s a common misconception. HR is there to protect the interests of the company. Not the employee.

Do you work in a school?
The problem is, unless someone sees your contract and was witness to the conversations you’ve previously had, we cannot give you definitive answers. What should have happened is that 4 years ago when you were unable to get a definitive answer you should have contacted your Union to act on your behalf. Failing that you should have contacted ACAS. You should also have got everything in writing. However, hindsight is a marvellous thing.
Now, contact ACAS or your Union and they can give you the correct advice on what to do about it.
In addition, stop being a mug and doing unpaid overtime!!!

Yes, see my previous post. Usually the limit is 2 years. There are some exceptions and you might be able to persuade your employer to pay you more if they don't want to lose you/piss you off but they're not legally obliged to. You might be better off considering ACAS or a lawyer though rather than MN to go through your specific situation?

So they are going to give you 80 hours leave instead of 160. Have you asked them if they would pay you for the other 80?

When does your leave year run from/to?

Did you raise an official grievance when the manager made the initial wrong decision?

Ensuring employees have the correct leave is protecting the employer!

ACAS on what you're legally entitled to as compensation.
Subject Access Request if the company continues to limit to 2 years but ACAS advise you're entitled to all 4. SAR will probably give you all the internal comms on the issue and for how long it's been discussed by your leadership amongst themselves and with the HR supplier.

You’re entitled to feel pissed off but legally they only have to backdate 2 years no more if they don’t want to even though it’s morally wrong. I’ve just had the same issue with my company at the beginning of the year. I’ve been raising it for 6 years and no one listened until we got a new HR manager, luckily she pushed for me and the company backdated me the full 6 years of missing annual leave. I did also have the option to be paid this as a lump sum. Maybe they would consider doing that for your for the remaining 2 years if they won’t give it to you as annual leave.

This is deeply unfair, but as you have acknowledged above, you don’t have a paper trail. Take the two weeks they owe you. I suggest you also start leaving on time rather than giving them an extra 30 to 60 minutes each. Unless you really like the new manager and /or love your work, which I think you do, then look elsewhere

Having a shite manager is a separate issue

@Courtnay my take on this is that you need to look at reasonableness.
You've presumably negotiated a working arrangement that suits you very well in a job you love and that many working mums would bite an employer's hand off for.
You've questioned the AL for 4 years but never put anything in writing, looked to escalate beyond your managers or indeed leave if it was such an issue for you.. Now it's finally acknowledged offering you 2 years of backdated AL sounds like a reasonable compromise to me. Yes, it's annoying but you have to some extent colluded with the situation because everything else about the job suits you. You'll have the backdated leave plus the extra leave year on year from now on so tbh is it really worth the angst and potential alienation of your employer?

HR does not exist to protect employees, but it protects the employer by ensuring that the company is compliant with employment law.

Morally, I think they should compensate you for all 4 years, but legally, I don't actually know - I imagine that they have probably taken advice on this. If you don't have any written evidence of having challenged it or having submitted a grievance etc, then it might be quite hard to make a case. Plus presumably you signed the contract with the incorrect entitlement in it, so there might be some dispute about when the matter was actually brought to their attention.

How much leave have you missed out on? I would be inclined to chalk it up to experience, personally. And start looking for another job if you feel that you've been badly treated in this one.

Agree with all of the above.