To think that some people conflate being “intellectual” with rejecting anything spiritual?

[BothAndNotEitherOr]

I’ve noticed a pattern, especially in online spaces like this one, where people seem to tie their sense of intellect or rationality to a total disbelief in anything spiritual. It’s like the idea of fate, intuition, synchronicity or even a loose belief in “something more” gets lumped in with being irrational or uneducated. I’m not talking about organised religion necessarily, more the subtle stuff people feel or notice but can’t always explain.

And to be honest, a lot of the responses I’ve seen on here reinforce that vibe. If you say anything even slightly beyond logic or science, there’s an instant eye-roll or a wall of statistics.

AIBU to think that some people over-identify with being hyper-logical and that rejecting anything spiritual has become a kind of intellectual performance?

I meant to tap YABU, sorry, can't change it. I think you're right, and truthfully can see that bias in myself sometimes.

No I don't agree.

Conversely, I don't know any very intelligent people who believe in woo.

I don’t really understand. Surely not accepting things with can’t/can’t yet be proved as fact is an automatic part of being a thinking human being? I

It's more about not being credulous than being intellectual.

Well sure. Some people do.

But a lot of what people label "spiritual" is in fact pseudo- or non- science which is provably untrue or nonsense, rather than part of the huge pool of the unknown, unexplained, awe-inspiring and possibly numinous. So sometimes the dismissal is justified if someone has more in depth scientific knowledge.

And on the other side of the divide from the hyper-rationals who dismiss anything, there are equally a lot of people who claim to be "spiritual", or "sensitive" in that kind of way, who are very happy to co-opt very fringe "scientific" opinions to provide alleged evidential support for their viewpoints, while simultaneously dismissing the 95%+ of scientific opinion which disagrees with them.

I think both sides are just expressions of a very common human approach/failing in terms of confirmation biases!

Do you mean “intellectual”, or do you mean “intelligent”?

It's like the idea of fate, intuition, synchronicity or even a loose belief in “something more” gets lumped in with being irrational

Well, you've just questioned why your list of irrational things gets lumped in with being irrational. I don't think you have to be an intellectual to work that one out.

...or educated.

There are plenty of educated people who are irrational, spiritual, religious, stupid or any combination of the above.

I think there’s a difference between not accepting something as fact and rejecting it outright as meaningless or foolish. I’m not arguing that unprovable things should be treated as evidence - just that curiosity, intuition or personal meaning don’t automatically equate to a lack of critical thinking. Plenty of people are comfortable holding uncertainty or metaphor alongside logic. My point is that some people seem to perform rationality by dismissing anything that sits outside strict proof, rather than simply saying “I don’t know” or “that’s not how I interpret it.”

‘Intuitions’ can often have a rational basis, they may arise from cues (real, physical things) we’re not consciously aware of.

And scientists are always saying ‘I don’t know’, or ‘we don’t know yet’. It’s all about curiosity!

What does 'strict proof' mean?

There's either proof or there isn't.

If someone told me they have 12 fingers, I'd ask to see their hands.

If they kept them in their pockets but still maintained it was the truth, I'd walk away thinking they were either a liar or deluded.

I mean intellectual in the sense of how people perform or identify with intellect, not raw intelligence. Someone can be very intelligent and still open to uncertainty, symbolism, intuition or spirituality. What I’m pointing to is more an identity posture where rejecting anything unprovable becomes part of how someone signals seriousness or rational superiority.

I think there’s a difference between not accepting something as fact and rejecting it outright as meaningless or foolish

Similarly, there’s a difference between accepting that you can’t explain something you (think you) saw or experienced, and viewing it as evidence of something otherworldly, paranormal or woo.

It’s really more likely to be mice than your dead auntie.

I think it’s a tricky one as I don’t think people who get so mistrustful of medical science they won’t accept treatment is ever a good thing, for example.

I do think there is a trend for the very proudly rational to be quite disrespectful and unkind about faith though - especially Christian belief or non traditional spiritual beliefs I would say. I don’t think being unimaginative about why some people might get a great deal of comfort or be inspired to do amazing things by their faith is particular intelligent though, so I do agree with you.

There's certainly a degree of 'I am against organised religion, therefore I am smarter than religious people'.

And don't get me wrong, there are plenty of reasons to take issue with organised religion. But I think a lot of people don't understand that religion/spirituality fits into people's lives in different ways. Some people don't believe in unseen spiritual forces, but find some spirituality in their life brings them calm and focus; some people (like me) follow their religion - I'm Jewish - because it is the spiritual and cultural tradition they were born into. And while I don't believe in God, I still find value in practices and rituals.

So I do roll my eyes a bit when I see statements along the line of 'All religious people are dumb/gullible, hahaha, they believe in some big Sky Daddy'. 'Being religious' can take many forms and they're not all credulous and/or dogmatic.

Yes, but it makes complete sense. It’s no coincidence that church attendances, belief in superstition, etc. has fallen as society has become better educated.

You should listen to Nick Cave speaking on faith.

Define spiritual.

I know plenty of doctors who believe in religion

Can you explain what you mean by spiritual?

To me, it sounds like you are explaining comfort in the familiar and nostalgic, your heritage and lineage, the beauties of the traditions you maintain. All of these things seem rational and comprehensible to me.

Is there something beyond these things that make them "spiritual"? I genuinely don't know what you mean.

I was a scientist. I know full well there are more things in heaven & earth etc. But I have an educated view of the world that is consistent with known facts. Extraordinary ideas will require extraordinary proof. Show me that proof and I will be convinced. Until then I am sceptical. If you believe in ghosts you will need to show me how they can fit into a consistent world view where people don’t know the future (or secrets from our ancestors, etc).

Personally I think you’re not being unreasonable someone has to think outside the box and come up with theories before you can test it and gain any possible evidence. Most theories seemed insane until they were tested and evidence collect. I think it’s unfortunate that this age of information has created a large pool of people that are very against creativity and open-mindedness. I think someone’s people think being openminded to possibilities is a strong belief in the metaphysical , you don’t need to believe in the metaphysical to be open to its existence. Personally I don’t approve of anyone treating anyone poorly about any of their beliefs

It’s only on MN that this happens, in real life people aren’t so black and white. Oddly though you don’t see others here calling religious people uneducated or unintelligent because of their beliefs. Apparently believing in God is fine but ghosts make you an idiot. MN is a weird place at times and not representative of many.

Oddly though you don’t see others here calling religious people uneducated or unintelligent because of their beliefs.

You see it all the time on MN though 😳

Although quite often the posts get deleted.

If you're not seeing it in real life, you're either not having those conversations or you're mixing with people who feel more comfortable stating their opinions online.

I am absolutely having these conversations, I have a belief in spirituality and I have friends and family who do and do not. All very comfortable sharing their opinions without deeming another unintelligent for having an opposing belief.