To think midwife’s get a rubbish deal compared to teachers?

[Midwifeacher]

Both should earn more than they do, obviously. My sister is trying to choose between midwifery and teaching. Both seem so different but she wants a guaranteed career and is trying to decide which route to take. I’ve been running comparisons with her.Whats shocked me is what a shoddy deal midwifes seem to get. Before taking into account that obviously, sadly, it carry huge emotional weight when things go wrong. Not entirely comparable in profession but why would anyone do this job?

Starting salary:
Midwife - £29,970
Teacher - £32,916

Highest salary without going into leadership
Midwife - £42,618
Teacher - £45,321

Holidays:
Teacher - 13 weeks plus term time bank holidays (though some unpaid, this is included in above salary) major holidays off, no flexibility to take term time off
Midwife - 27 days plus bank holidays, often work major holidays, can book time off when needed, though hard to get approval.

Pension (employer contribution):
Teacher - 28.6%
Midwife - 23.7%

Shifts:
Teacher - 6.5 hour shift mon-fri daytime (student facing) lots of reported overtime
Midwife - 12 hour shift inc evenings and weekends (patient facing) lots of reported overtime

AIBU to think midwives are getting a crap deal? Is it because they’re not as unionised?

also she’s obviously not basing which career she goes for on the above factors, but it has to be taken into consideration!

OP - I don’t thing you were being goady, or trying to undermine teachers!

its impossible to compare the jobs, as they are both underpaid and really challenging. But, like you, I am really shocked to see how much MORE taken for granted a midwife is.

Id be encouraging teaching if I were you - long term relationships w the people you work with, way more predictable, less potential for calamity, much longer holidays AND more pay…

Yes I agree, as a midwife I do think a focus on pay etc downplays the elephant in the room which is the unsafe conditions many in the profession work under. I have never once heard of a midwife leave due to pay, most leave because of stress of not being able to provide the care they wanted to and fear of litigation or just burnout from trying to provide decent care under such conditions. I’m very lucky with the job I have but I think maybe training to a nurse first then a midwife may be better, then if unable to find a decent midwifery position in terms of safety and flexibility (if one day have own family) then there is a lot more scope within nursing

This 100%!!!
It boils my piss that some people think that teachers roll in at 9am and bugger off at 3.30 because it couldn’t be further from the truth!
They then work unpaid at weekends and often purchase resources out of their own purse.
Together with having to pay a premium for holidays, the abuse and violence etc and I certainly wouldn’t encourage anyone to go into teaching right now. Also, sometimes with very little support from SLT.

I'm not sure this is how I'd decide on a career path. But for what it's worth, in my immediate family we have 2 teachers - one head of department, one newly qualified and one experienced midwife.

I'd say they all work really hard. The jobs are really different though.

Do teachers get more holidays? I'm not sure that's right but maybe marginally on paper but not if you take into account all the weekends/bank holidays etc that are spent planning and marking. Midwifery holidays are certainly more flexible.

But regardless, I've never heard any of them suggest they'd rather do the others job. I'd say the motivations for them and their personal interests are quite different.

As a midwife I can tell you I am full of admiration for the job teachers do, caring for 30 young children let alone educating them is amazing. My children love school and the after school clubs the teachers give up their time to run. I can imagine there is a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes and when discussing childcare with teacher friends, they all seem to need to have arrangements to leave for work by 7.30am at the latest. They do enjoy their holidays (but still seem to have to do some work before the start of term) and these are very much deserved imo

That’s kind of you to say.
I have every admiration for midwives and although the lovely part must be bringing a healthy baby into the world, I wouldn’t be able to cope when things go wrong. You’re angels!

Presumably that's career-changing from nursing though, in the same way that you could do eg a 2-year masters into speech therapy if you already have a relevant degree?

You don't have to do nursing first and could train in midwifery in 3 years?

I'm a teacher, and as the other teacher has said - I'm full of admiration for midwives and what you do for women at our most vulnerable time.
I'd rather have a class of lively 30 yr9s on a Friday afternoon, any time!

My sister is trying to choose between midwifery and teaching. Both seem so different

They are completely different, yes.

Why don't you suggest your sister joins this thread, OP and she can share what she actually wants in a career. It sounds like there are huge numbers of both midwives and teachers on here to ask questions to-what a mine of information to tap into!

She wants a 'guaranteed' career, you say? I'm sure she/you are aware there are no guarantees with anything. 1/3 of teachers have left after five years and there are very few teachers in their 50/60s left, despite the pension age rising. I would imagine it's a similar situation in midwifery, perhaps someone on here can tell me?

In teaching, large numbers leave after having a baby. Huge numbers are forced out on capability or support plans when they get to the top of the pay scale as the budgets are so crap that head need to replace them with a newly qualified (cheap) teacher to balance the books. There is a whole campaign about this. Is this the same in midwifery? Teaching is a job where experience is now seen as bad because it makes you unaffordable for the budget. Young/fresh (and more importantly cheap) is desirable. The £17k TLR will never happen in a primary school-we have 0 TLRs in my school, none-simply can't afford them for anyone

What sort of 'guaranteed' job are you/she hoping for? It would be great to hear from her.

One of my midwives with my second child was a teacher first. She had done both and much preferred the role of midwife.

i also worked in a school with an ex-midwife. She wasnt a teacher she was support staff. Earning significantly less than mws and teachers as she didnt think either of those roles was worth the stress.

op, you are quoting numbers that just rarely exist. You are not including nurses / mws over times and condensed shifts and extra days off a week as a result of condensed shifts. They add up. UPS in some schools doesnt exist. My school has never had a directed time calendar as we are well, well over it. And that is hours before everything that is expected to be done in your own time. And the unions cannot do a thing about it.

training for teachers is, after the three year undergraduate degree, is a PGCE year (aug/ sept to July. So 10/11 months), followed by two training in school years where you can still fail (and for the last three years we have had three that have as they could not manage the workload. One of this years already isn't looking great for passing either).

I would highly recommend you advise your sister to do neither.

@PodMom if you do a degree, then it is a pgce on top, then two further in-the-job training years. So 6 years for teaching. We had someone fail in summer of their second in-school year recently. They failed towards the end of year 6.

@rainbowstardrops Absolutely! And also teachers that say "Actually, the job isn't that bad" then in the next breath say "I've been teaching for at least two years."
Come back and tell me you still enjoy the job after 20+ years in and that it hasn't almost destroyed your MH and prevented you from being present for your own family!

Quite.
I was actually an additional needs TA, so worked with some very vulnerable young children and children who needed additional learning support and I left after thirteen years in the job. I used to love it but I just couldn’t take the mental load or the physical abuse any more. I wouldn’t encourage anyone to go into teaching with the state of schools these days.

They are both highly stressful, complex, graduate level and woefully undervalued/ underpaid jobs.

The nonsense about teachers leaving at 3 and not working during the 13 weeks that schools are shut is as silly as the ideas that midwives sit round at the nurses station drinking tea and cuddling babies all day.

Stop trying to cause a bun fight and just help your sister figure out which job she would prefer/ is better suited to.

It’s a shame really as she always wanted to be a teacher but has heard so much negativity online from those in the profession, that she thinks midwifery would be a better option. She’s passionate about both. The numbers we went through showed teaching wasn’t too bad in that respect and that midwife’s get a crap deal too
and before you all jump on me again I never said teachers only work 6 hours a day!! I said that was their student facing shift
Though clearly neither are easy!
Can we ask the teachers on here who are saying not to do it etc, why you stay? Or have you all quit? What do ex teachers tend to do if you can’t hack it?

@Midwifeacher I quit primary after 21 years in. Now an EOTAS Tutor. My biggest regret is I didn't do it sooner!

Can we ask the teachers on here who are saying not to do it etc, why you stay? Or have you all quit? What do ex teachers tend to do if you can’t hack it?

Why for anyone stay in their job? They depend on the salary usually.

I would recommend she looks on the 'Exit the classroom and thrive' facebook post and take an hour to read some of the posts-then come back here. I'd be interested to know what she thinks. This group had about 30,000 members when I joined during Covid, it's now got 187000+. There are lots of posts about what teachers now do.

I would also maybe alter your language when talking to anyone about why they don't do the career they once loved. Asking them why they couldn't 'hack it' anymore, is unnecessarily provocative.

Hack it wasn’t meant to be provocative. She specifically said she was worried because ‘what would I do if I can’t hack it’
I’ll tell her to check out the fb group. Thank you.

Why do I do it?

1. The holidays
2. I really enjoy working with young people. Teens are genuinely hilarious.
3. That moment when a student "gets it" is brilliant.
4. The holidays
5. The holidays
6. The holidays fit round my kids.

Why doesn't your sister come on this thread herself?! Surely that would make more sense 😂

@rainbowstardrops thank you very much ☺️ yes it really is a wonderful job when there’s a good outcome and the family have been happy with the care you’ve given. It’s awful and very traumatic for all of those involved when there is an unexpected bad outcome. When my niece decided to go into midwifery I tried to dissuade her as I just thought, your such a lovely person and would hate for her to ever be that midwife in the wrong place at the wrong time 🙏
Obviously it is also really sad with the expected bad outcomes and sure all of us have got in our car to go home and just broken down in tears at the heartbreak for the poor family, if not before 😔 I have been blown over by these families that still always seem to say thank you to you at what is the most dreadful time of their lives

Thank you also @SuziQuinto although I really love doing our monthly antenatal class with (so far!!) an always lovely group of eager first time parents, I think I would be one of those teachers eaten alive by a class of year 9s 😂 never mind the flack you get if a certain % don’t pass their exams etc, much respect to you!

Returning to your actual question of

'do you think midwives get a rubbish deal compared to teachers'

What do you conclude? Do you still think this?

Thanks.

It was more the time scale that surprised me. Of course there are issues spotted at birth or the first few years but 18 years plus
seemed unlikely, to me any way. The heart thing was just an example, I can see that brain injuries are much more likely.

Guess at least they get paid for those last two years. Midwives do a preceptorship as a NQ midwife which takes 1-2 years which technically you could not achieve. Saying that you are qualified before your preceptorship. I suppose if you didn’t achieve your suturing, cannulation, etc though you could potentially lose your job and if they thought you were bad enough your trust could report you to the nmc to be struck off. In reality they’d probably just give you more time.

Both professions seem to have a high attrition rate due to the working conditions. I’ve heard from teacher friends about the reluctance to employ the more expensive teachers at the top of their band. Thankfully this has never really been an issue in midwifery, if anything the newly qualified midwives often have problems securing their first position, even though they are much cheaper to employ. I think because there is required to be a specific skill mix and it would be foolhardy of any trust to employ just all newly qualified midwives as it would be counterproductive financially if more things went wrong. That said the newly qualified midwives are worked just as hard ( for much lower pay) and do come with a wealth of up to date knowledge and recent experience in all areas so very much an asset to our team and much appreciated by the women we care for.