We need to talk about men needing to be partners, not 'providers and protectors'

[Echobelly]

I see a lot of messaging, especially in the 'manosphere' but some outside it too that men's role in relationships is to 'provide and protect'. In this day and age, though, that's an outdated model. Marriage has for a very long time not been the only way for women to get money to pat for anything, so we're not going to swoon over a guy just for earning money. For most couples, both need to work, plenty of women now outearn men and men can't expect to be forgiven having to give any help at home because they are out 'providing' (this was never a particularly fair deal anyway given women's unpaid labour). And we're not going off to war every 5 minutes these days, so the 'protect' part seems a bit redundant, especially when we know that intimate partners are the biggest risk to women.

But too many people still talk about things as that's all women want or need and - a man with a job who might be able to shout threateningly if you happened to have a break in at your house. And it sets men up to fail because the parameters are so different from the world this idea was based on.

I think a key source of disappointment and disillusionment for women is men just not being real partners in a relationship and as parents. And it seems they need to be told this - to know that their wives/partners are working (whether earning or not) and you don't just get to come home and say you're too tired from 'working hard' to help. Or that if you don't have kids, female partners aren't there to run your life with you or do all the management of your family and social life. Men need to be full participants in relationships, not virtual bystanders whose only job is to bring in money - and the way we talk to men and boys and bring up our kids should reflect this.

Yep most of my female ancestors and current family members work and have always had to.

Why can't we simply teach them to be human and humane?
Teach them empathy through reading, patience, kindness...you know, all the things women have to do to balance out their rash violence?

I'm actually interested in the biology that shows you can see empathy strands in the frontal cortex - maybe regular brain scans and work out sessions, possibly even injecting some in if there are too few, would save us all a lot of money. Imagine no wars, no violent crime. All the tax we could spend on actually becoming a better human race!

Raising your sons right? Why didn’t anyone think of that before?

(men are naturally aggressive, it’s innate, it doesn’t just go away when you read them a few books, it’s why prisons are full of men and why most murderers are male in every human culture, no fuck it, among animals too)

I think the most vulnerable woman are women that don’t meet the requirements for disability but are still unfit for work.
My sister had learning disabilities, autism and adhd and had multiple jobs that she couldn’t manage and ended up on the streets so she got married had several children and stayed at home.
She felt she didn’t have any other options as being married meant she had a home and bills were being paid. Her marriage was very abusive and she was completely controlled so she saw no way out and sadly she ended her own life.
There needs to be more support so woman aren’t stuck in a situation where they need a man to support them.

Ive never had a man provide for me or protect me. I find they tend not to unless they're getting a return.

I am always baffled when I read about couples on here in their early 20s where the male partner thinks he doesn't have to do any housework or baby-related duties. Some of these men have parents who were born in the 1980s like me - my parents and those of my friends both worked, although mum part time so housework was shared accordingly. Have we really been modelling "men work, women clean" to kids born in 2000? Are they getting it off their mates/incel social media?

If you actually ever want to expand that Victorian idea, neuroscience might be interesting to you.

There are hormonal and chemical shifts (that could be controlled potentially) but behaviour patterns change the shape of the brain. Porn for example changes the shapes of mens' brains.

How about being all three? A woman already has to be a partner (to her spouse), a protector (to her children) and a provider (to both). How about we just accept that both people in the family unit need to embody these three roles?

What it means to be partner, protector and provider may look different for each person, and in each individual relationship, but fundamentally that's what both partners are being called upon to do, in their own way.

So more emphasis on partnership, sure. I do agree with you there. But I would absolutely not be teaching men they don't need to be protectors and providers in a marriage.

It’s depressingly common on MN for women to say their partners ‘provide well’.

They only ever seem to mean money, not providing for their emotional, social, intellectual needs. Certainly not providing for their rights.

Mad to want a man to provide something you can yourself - money - at the expense of things most people seek from others.

I am fine with them "providing" and "protecting", as long as what they protect is the relationship and provide equal support in it.

It’s not a Victorian idea (whatever that is supposed to mean) it’s just reality and as women we have to live it every day.

You can even read stories of transmen injecting themselves with testosterone and how it affects their behaviour. You think you can control that on a societal level?

The only way is to kill violent men, generation after generation. Ideally before they have children

Wow. Kill violent men for generations?

Hormones can be controlled. Chemical castration is a thing.
My point was behaviour is a choice and can be learned with effort. It's the effort we need to reinforce as a sadly large proportion of men don't seem to want to be decent humans and make shitty choices with their behaviour, which reinforces it in their brains.

Really? There's a lot of us who are for working as a team. There's give and take, complementary strengths both inside and outside the home.

You can take the provide and the protect because it's never been a given. You just need to look at a lot of the threads on mn to see that there's a lack of any of these things however,which means that there's a lot of women in the family unit getting shafted.

violent men pass on tendencies towards violence. they certainly don’t care about what you teach them about ‘kindness’ and ‘empathy’. they won’t try to understand

why are women generally better human beings? it’s innate, we naturally have higher empathy and understanding of other’s needs and feelings. probably because it made us more successful mothers

it’s like you just want to believe men choose to behave badly and women choose to behave better than men, all thoughout history, in all human cultures.

they are just way more impulsive, and that’s hard to fix, maybe it can’t be fixed

My husband earns less than me and has a spinal condition which is likely to get worse with age. Should I divorce him now or wait until he is definitely incapable of being either a provider or a protector? He's 50 and we have a 5 yo for background.
Edited to add: sarcasm intended but you see my point.

See also "generosity" - yes I like men to be generous too. With their emotions, with their kindness, with their empathy. But on MN threads that goes down like a lead balloon because everyone else just means money or sometimes presents.

Agreeing with Manospohere principles=protective/provider is not logically valid IME.

Many men in prison have been raised in dysfunctional homes, with cultural expectations of manliness. Neural pathways are formed at a young age and damaged by that dysfunctional nurturing, it isn't nature, it's culture so yes, you can absolutely raise your children correctly or at least give it a good try as having a boy is not an aleatory event where the outcome is unknown!

But surely this depends on your circle, where you grew up, your upbringing, your role models, your cultural background and the people around you now.

I am the opposite - I don't know any SAHDs in real life but plenty of SAHMs. My own sister is a SAHM and content to be so. She never wanted a career, if she had it her way, she would have had a baby at 16 but our parents pushed her to get some sort of education. She and her husband have an extremely traditional marriage set up and they both seem happy with that. She never really had a career, mostly low-paying jobs so I wonder whether that is a part of it.

The idea of needing a protector makes me want to puke. Never even been on my radar - who even thinks like that?

I don't think you know a lot about men.

Men don't want equality, they want to lead. If every decision is a negotiation, they're not interested.

Being "equal" makes sense for us, not for them.

That's why marriage rates have fallen off a cliff. We don't need men. They don't want us. We are no longer compatible in that sense.

Well, when I say we "don't need them", obviously I'm not referring to the jobs they do. Just in terms of a domestic setting. Of course, wanting children does change that dynamic.

It's threads like this that makes me glad I'm gay! 😅

What makes you think you're qualified to speak on behalf of all men?

Some men don't want equality.

Some do, and they're perfectly happy to work in partnership with women, without feeling the need to "lead".

It sounds like you have only encountered the dinosaurs, but they certainly aren't all like that.

I showed this comment to DP and we had a discussion about it, as I didn't want to just speak for him, but he finds this idea horrifying (which is borne out by everything about our relationship). He doesn't want to lead a woman, and I will absolutely not be led. We both prefer a partnership, where we both end up happy with decisions, and no one has the final say on making them. That's been my general experience of relationships, and my friends' - rare partnerships with men who want to "lead" are looked at as concerning aberrations.

I agree. My friends who date men aren’t with men who want to lead. In fact in many cases, including mine, the woman earns more and the man does all the cooking. They’re mutually supportive relationships where we both retain autonomy.