We need to talk about men needing to be partners, not 'providers and protectors'

[Echobelly]

I see a lot of messaging, especially in the 'manosphere' but some outside it too that men's role in relationships is to 'provide and protect'. In this day and age, though, that's an outdated model. Marriage has for a very long time not been the only way for women to get money to pat for anything, so we're not going to swoon over a guy just for earning money. For most couples, both need to work, plenty of women now outearn men and men can't expect to be forgiven having to give any help at home because they are out 'providing' (this was never a particularly fair deal anyway given women's unpaid labour). And we're not going off to war every 5 minutes these days, so the 'protect' part seems a bit redundant, especially when we know that intimate partners are the biggest risk to women.

But too many people still talk about things as that's all women want or need and - a man with a job who might be able to shout threateningly if you happened to have a break in at your house. And it sets men up to fail because the parameters are so different from the world this idea was based on.

I think a key source of disappointment and disillusionment for women is men just not being real partners in a relationship and as parents. And it seems they need to be told this - to know that their wives/partners are working (whether earning or not) and you don't just get to come home and say you're too tired from 'working hard' to help. Or that if you don't have kids, female partners aren't there to run your life with you or do all the management of your family and social life. Men need to be full participants in relationships, not virtual bystanders whose only job is to bring in money - and the way we talk to men and boys and bring up our kids should reflect this.

You're completely correct but MN is not the kind of site where that goes down well - MNers love their traditional gender roles too much. I dare say someone will be along talking about how men are evolutionarily programmed to be providers and protectors any second.

The emphasis on providing and protecting also makes men worse partners. If they're conditioned from an early age that the best things they can do as men are to be strong and earn money, that kind of "hyper-masculinity" (all scare quotes necessary) is not going to lend itself to sharing the domestic load (which, in the provider-and-protector world, is what women are evolutionarily programmed to do anyway).

It's also worse for society as a whole, given that the logical conclusion of providing and protecting is to be a violent ultra-capitalist who's happy to use his fists to exploit those weaker than him.

Men need to unlearn their traditional gender roles in the same way that women have unlearned a lot of ours.

No chance that will go down well on here

Really, I've not noticed a tendency towards that thinking. I mean there are some people but I'd think most people would agree that the provider/protector thing has not done women and relatuionships much good.

Are you 3 popping in from a parallel universe?

Not to my knowledge 😁

Mmmm, I tried that OP. For two solid years after our ds was born and my ex morphed into 1950s man. I explained over and over that I was working full time just the same as him , and saying he couldn't help at night or change a nappy because 'he worked' didn't cut it, that he needed to share the load.

It didn't make any difference. After two years I gave up.

I suspect it will take generations of 'telling ' to change some men's minds. My ds will hopefully be different, having grown up away from his dad.

Oh yeah, it's going to be a lot of work. I'll admit we failed with the gender-equitable parenting. DH does about 900% more domestically than my dad ever did, but then my dad really didn't do much on the caregiving front at all - was a great dad in other ways but not much help to mum. But I still ended up the default parent in our home.

Our son is very empathetic, but also scatty like his dad but I hope, as he gets ready for relationships, to teach him the lesson that women don't just do stuff at home because we like it and he needs to learn to notice things and deal with them, and to get up and do something if his partner is running round doing stuff while he's 'trying to relax'. She's probably 'trying to relax' too, just she can't do it until more stuff is dealt with!

I think if truth be told some women simply don't want to go out to work - so they look for a husband to provide.
Dangerous strategy.

I can't believe that we even need to have this conversation in 2025 tbh. I absolutely want a partner not a protector/provider. It blows my mind that any woman would disagree with that.

@Twistedfirestarters Still, so many women do. We have a long way to go.

Oh @Echobelly i expect great things from my husband.

he is definitely a partner, but not really a provider (he works, but I outearn him), and im not really sure who he has needed to protect me from in the last 20 odd years.

but, he is definately my partner in life and in parenting

Yeah I think men are conditioned as much by the dating market as their old-fashioned upbringings.

I agree but I don't think it will happen. Sounds a bit harder than the "just do your 9-5 darling and shout about immigration to the telly" they are used to though. They might have to think of someone else (regularly!) and do a lot more in general. Of course men know, even if deep down, women do care work for their families as well as official paid work. If we didn't the whole country would grind to a halt. Make them responsible for their own parents for starters!

My daughter knows never to rely on a man as none have been great role models, so the current men aren't helping themselves or the next generation of boys either.

I agree, @gannett — but I don’t see any women who are seeking ‘providers and protectors’ in my real life. Or indeed know any men who think that’s their job. I’ve known more longterm SAHDs than SAHMs.

It certainly never occurred to that my career was optional either because I was a woman, before or after marriage, or because I had a child. DH is my life partner, not my provider/protector. I’ve earned since I was old enough to be paid, and I don’t need protection. He has my back, but that’s different.

It's easy to men can change but i prssume of a woman wants to be old fashioned wont be attracted or want to be in a relationship with a 'changed' man

If a woman believes they need to stay home and play house why would she have a relationship with man who beleives women are mature capable adults of standing in theit own 2 feet and acting like a grown up

For many men who want to provide and protect there are women who want to SAH. As long as they attract each other, have at it I say. I find given how precarious I’ve seen life be that it is an incredibly risky strategy for so many, many reasons but there are people who completely sail through life with minimal adversity and if you are one of those then good luck to you.

It absolutely is not for me though, I absolutely love my job, I have loads of time off and I’m paid well which for me feels like the best of both worlds and DH s a partner not a provider/protecter and thankfully that works for us.

They’re by no means uniform or perfect but I’m sad that our gen x/ early millennial men have been on the path to this.

They are the generation of paternity leave! The generation where men took Fridays off and danced with their daughter at baby ballet (my DH!) the generation that changed nappies. The generation of manscaping, David beckham, the metrosexual. Men who lived alone before marrying! Men who would buy your tampons. It seemed such a huge step forward compared to my say dads generation.

but of course, it was too much too soon and their sons pushed back with the manosphere.

@FracasFracas I wonder if that depends on the social circles in which you move? For example, if you are a working professional are you more likely to know other professional women/couples?

I'm in my 20s and like most of my friends we're not interested in kids and if we are we want a more equitable partnership. It's the reason I've stopped dating because SO many men want to be a provider and protector and that makes me run a mile

You can see it starting when the dads buy their daughter's baby grows that say things like "Hurt My Daughter and I'll Shoot You" or "Daddy is my Hero" rubbish. It's a weird vaguely sexualised dependance on his ego that some men seem to absolutely need to "be needed". They tend to go for women who also had this messaging from a young age and the idea of being single, let alone a single parent, actually terrifies them. Often they didn't do well at school because being brainy wasn't attractive to men (care for their little egos again), so they rely on them for income. So the cycle continues.

I think it is not black and white. I am always open mouthed reading threads of women in maternity leave using up all their savings and being expected to contribute 50% of expenses etc. We are the child bearers and at those times we do need to be protected and provided for and I for one am very thankful that I had a husband who felt the same way. I worked minimal hours whilst our kids were preschool and primary, then I worked full time when DH was unemployed, then he WFH and did drop offs and pick ups and we both were full time. Now I out earn him, and we have always shared all expenses. But, when my 3 were young he was definitely the provider and most of the friends I had were similar. Even as we all returned to work, must of then were clear that they would much prefer to be SAHMs and only worked because they could not afford not to.

Mine is all three. He is firstly my partner and I out earned him. However when I was pregnant and sick and a new mother he protected and provided so I could breastfeed the baby and look after him until I was comfortable to leave him and re enter the workplace. For those three years we had traditional gender roles. Now he out earns me but we share household duties and childcare. I would not have been happy to have a baby and leave them with dad while I went back to work. Totally against my instincts abd physically impossible until the invention of formula.
I'm sure the dynamic will change again over the years but sure as he'll he couldn't get pregnant or breastfeed and he is much stronger than me . I needed a protector to advocate for me when I was pregnant and a provider so I could stay home with the baby.
I can't see a problem with this.

I don't know any in my social circles either! I only know two SAHMs - one comes from a lot of family money and the other definitely wasn't aiming to become a SAHM. And yes, I like the way DP and I keep each other safe. Emotionally, more important than physically. (It was really important to me that he's a gentle, non-violent soul.)

You see a lot of the protector-and-provider rhetoric on MN dating threads though, and if you push back you get told you have a low bar.

I’m a 50 year old Gen X and I really don’t recognise this ‘provider and protector’ narrative within my age group and social circle. This wasn’t what we aspired to growing up or what we looked to men for. We were brought up to want an equal partner and to go to uni and have careers. I think there’s a more recent circling back to old fashioned gender roles that you see across social media, like the trad wife/husband-provider narrative, for example.

Sorry, slightly digressing from your OP, but I increasingly notice things I’d taken as a given are being reframed as ‘things we need to talk about’, and I’m left scratching my head thinking, ‘but wasn’t that all sorted out back in 1993?’ 😂

Edited to add that my background is bog standard comp, first in the family to go to uni etc.

Yanbu but I think it may be hardwired into humans on a subconscious level that men are protectors and providers. Personally I agree with you, a marriage, child rearing should be a partnership.

I think when initially meeting a person things like being a protector etc do matter (why do we need men to generally be taller than us if it wasn’t so, yet it’s something thats hard to articulate even though the chances of your DH having to fight people off is low).

I think there are two seperate issues really that get mixed up, what makes for initial attraction and what maintains a relationship. I like big men who look like they’ve been sleeping in a forest and fighting off bears, keep your pretty men, I like the rough looking ones (but smart, happily for me I’m married to a massive clever man). I literally cannot explain that preference. However I expect as civilised people who are conscious of our own behaviour we can manage the second part which is being stable, reliable and useful to the family.