To think this isn’t appropriate work conversation?

[AllIDoIsFloat]

Sat at work and on my lunch break while two colleagues discuss that they are anti-LGBT. In its entirety. They believe lesbians and gay people are going against “gods will” and that trans people are just mentally unwell and the surgery should be illegal.

Now I’m somewhat gender critical myself but certainly don’t believe that the surgery should be illegal. And in any event, I don’t think it’s appropriate for work? They don’t know what other people are going through, how they or their family identify. It just makes me sad that they think this is appropriate. I’m

I don’t think they should think in the same way as I do.

But I think there are topics that are just not appropriate to discuss in certain places. The same way I’d not sit in work and talk about my feelings on things like the conflict in the Middle East or certain political situations in the UK - you don’t know who around you has feelings on those issues. What if I was lesbian, and they had said that about me?

Of course we have freedom of speech, and you're absolutely right that their beliefs are protected. But not every belief has to be aired in public.

The issue for me is where one person's right to free expression starts to impact on another person's right to work in an inclusive environment.

It isn't about everyone having to think in the same way, it is about recognising that some views do not need to be expressed in the workplace.

I’m honestly surprised some posters are framing this as “just an opinion” or “freedom of speech.” Saying that gay people are “going against God” isn’t harmless conversation, especially in an open plan office where colleagues can’t remove themselves from hearing it.

A person’s sexual orientation is not an opinion or a viewpoint. It is a protected characteristic and it is a fundamental part of who someone is. Treating someone’s right to exist openly as if it is a debate topic is dehumanising in itself. You can have an opinion on music or tv, but you cannot have an “opinion” on whether another human being is allowed dignity, safety and equal treatment.

Comments that frame LGBT identity as immoral or wrong can legally count as harassment because they target a protected group in a way that is degrading or hostile. Employers are required to prevent this, which is exactly why it is not appropriate workplace chat.

And on the free speech point, we do not have absolute freedom of speech in the UK. Expression is limited in workplaces and nobody has the right to make discriminatory remarks without consequences. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom to say harmful things at work.

Calling a whole group of people “wrong” or “against God” isn’t a harmless personal belief. It is questioning their right to exist without shame, and that crosses a line.

Unbelievable, freedom of speech and of belief is in dire straits in this country.

Too much freedom leads to anarchy. Any speech should be legal and respectful.

Over my career, I've had to speak to a few staff about "private conversations" in the workplace which have made other people feel uncomfortable.

For example, I had to deal with two young men who liked to talk to each other about women in very crude and objectifying ways which their female colleagues found offensive. An older man with strong religious/cultural beliefs about the role of women which other staff found very upsetting. A small group of pro trans staff who expressed very strident views about gender critical women which made some of their colleagues feel uncomfortable.

Do people think that freedom of speech means that I should have allowed all of the above to air their views freely and told the other staff to just suck it up because everyone is entitled to their opinions?

@MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack
I totally agree that all those conversations are inappropriate. The key point in my view is consistency, in any the work place all conversations that marginalise or make others uncomfortable due to issues unrelated to work should not be occurring. What is happening inside an individual’s head is entirely different. What irritates me is where people are allowed to discuss certain issues as if they are accepted fact and the “right” view when they are just a belief and it’s acceptable whereas other views are not allowed to be discussed. The same Principal should apply regardless of the issue being discussed.

But nothing happened to anyone. This was a private conversation between 2 consenting adults that the OP overheard. It may well be a pretty distasteful one depending on where your beliefs lie. There are many instances where people who expressed similar thoughts were charged and then released - some even received compensation for wrongful arrest.
On 20 April 2010, police arrested Dale McAlpine, a Christian preacher, of Workington in Cumbria, for saying that homosexual conduct was a sin. On 14 May 2010, the Crown decided not to prosecute McAlpine.[26] Later still the police apologised to McAlpine for arresting him at all, and paid him several thousand pounds compensation
What we would LIKE to happen, or EXPECT to happen, is not necessarily what WILL happen because the laws on discrimination doesn't say what people think it does. FYI, if I overheard this conversation I would likely chip in with something like ‘well, it doesn’t matter what you think because luckily here in the UK homosexuality is perfectly legal’.

Well done for reporting it. It sounds like the manager is acting on your report, which is great.

They are free to practice their religion. They are not free to create a hostile environment for people with protected characteristics. Saying that LGBT people are against God's will is making the workplace a hostile environment for LGBT people. It's sad and weird to me that this needs to be spelled out.

It marks them out as knobs to be avoided if you disagree.
I work in a 'trades' heavy profession, the anti gay and lesbian stuff I haven't heard for a long time, that seems a widely accepted thing now thankfully. GC is hardly controversial, its reality. I've heard just about every other 'ism though. I roll my eyes, get up and walk away from them. If everyone staff or customers was reported for unpalatable opinions there would be few of each left.
Usually the same fervent 'opinion' holders are into conspiracy stuff as well.

I wonder if you really believe that people should be free to express any beliefs that they wish, regardless of how offensive or hurtful those views might be to other people. And whether you might actually object to the expression of certain beliefs that might happen to be offensive to you.

I used to work with two lovely women, one was a religious Muslim (wore loose robe clothing and hijab), the other was a lesbian. The one who was a lesbian made book displays as part of her job. She made one for Ramadam / Eid (or might have been general religions) and used a Pride flag to cover the display table. The Muslim was offended because of her religion she believes being gay is a sin. She told the lesbian colleague, who was offended by her belief that being gay or lesbian is a sin. They discussed it calmly and agreed to disagree. Not sure what my point is but we can’t only be allowed to have ‘approved’ opinions. I was given warnings at work because I said men can’t be women and women and girls need their own spaces. I could have been sacked for it, which would have had a massive impact on my career. For caring about women and vulnerable girls.

Yes yes yes.

I believe it is everyone's right to hold and express opinions that I find annoying or offensive. I don't find them upsetting because I refuse to be upset about the opinions of others that I don't agree with.

I am annoyed by being called racist every time I question uncontrolled immigration numbers and suggesting they have led to high house prices and NHS overload.

I am annoyed by being called racist every time I question allowing men whose backgrounds have not and cannot be checked to roam our towns.

I am annoyed by men telling me they know what it feels like to be a woman.

I am annoyed by white people calling black people who do not agree with their picture of the victimhood of black people coconuts, bounties and oreos.

I think Tommy Robinson is a racist thug but I'd rather hear what he's saying out loud than have it hidden away somewhere. Andrew Tate, mysogynist abuser, similar.

I wouldn't be exactly happy if anyone told me I was a stupid/selfish/arrogant/ugly word-of-choice bitch.

But I would defend to the end their right to say those things.

Because what is the alternative? It would end with nobody allowed to say anything that might offend someone else, ie that nobody would be allowed to challenge anything, and how bloody dangerous would that be?

Galileo died after 9 years house arrest for believing that the earth went round the sun.

We have had people's livelihoods removed for believing that men cannot become women.

This is really dangerous stuff.

They're being foolish regardless of their opinions.Would a positive intervention such as diversity/respect training be the answer.

They hold a protected view themselves that their religion says that homosexuality is immoral and sinful. This is hardly a niche view, many religions hold the same view, and many entire countries have laws against it. How dare anybody tell them that their view is wrong and only the liberal western view is right?

I don't agree with them in modern times when the adverse male/male health effects can be mitigated, and we don't need more babies, but I wouldn't dream of telling them they can't hold that view even though I think they are wrong.

There are many lesbian and bi woman outside of the “liberal west” (your words) you know. Many living in fear of being ostracised, some in fear of death. How does that make things right.

It doesn't. Nobody said it did. I don't think it is.

But it does not mean that those people have a right to insist that nobody tells them that they believe that the way they live their lives is immoral. It's a slippery slope, especially in the liberal west right now, that lands in a terrible place.

Some musings as I try and unpick my own thoughts on the subject.

The problem is that I wouldn't feel comfortable working with someone who believes, for example, that 'women don't belong in the workplace' whether they expressed this opinion or no.
In fact, I'd almost prefer they said it so the thought could be addressed.
That to me is the huge benefit of free speech.
It also protects against the current lunacy whereby you're not allowed to say biological sex exists, and matters.
On the other hand I do think you should be able to do your job without having to debate an emotive subject if you are not so inclined. Or to constantly have to defend your existence. In short, I wouldn't defend harassment in the name of free speech.

In this case, as no one hurt, I personally would leave it alone. But I might not have lunch with that particular pair.

As I already stated on this thread, I am a lesbian and I have heard homophobic comments or language several times in different workplaces. Sometimes I ignored it, a couple of times I told the colleagues that I was gay, which embarrassed them sufficiently to shut the conversation down.

I NEVER ran off crying to management about it, because a) I’m not a snowflake, and b) no one was abusing me or any other individual directly. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and beliefs.

You aren’t gay or trans and yet you took it upon yourself to run whinging to a manager. Maybe just eat your sandwich and get on with your Amazon shopping in your next lunch hour.

When people here suggest that some topics should not be discussed at work, what they actually mean is that some OPINIONS on that topic shouldn’t be discussed. In other words, GC views can’t be discussed, but it would be fine if a few right-on liberals were espousing pro-trans views. Or it’s not ok to say your religious beliefs proscribe homosexuality but it’s fine for other colleagues to hang Pride bunting up every June.

Ban the entire topic, from every viewpoint, not just the side you disagree with.

Personally, I don’t think employers can or should control what discussions staff can have, and debate is healthy.

I think you only change peoples opinions by challenging them, but you have to feel quite robust to do that. I think Op was right to report them.

I agree with you but navigating the workplace and disciplinary procedures is tricky.You also can't expect people to be hypocritical but perhaps that free exchange of views when they're unasked for isn't the best option.

OK. So, let's say that you had a couple of very conservative Muslim men on your team at work, who held certain strong beliefs about how women should and shouldn't dress. If they sat in the workplace expressing the view that women who didn't conform to their expectations were behaving immorally, you would be happy to let them crack on with the conversation? You don't think it would be appropriate for someone to have a quiet word even though their conversation is making their female colleagues feel uncomfortable?

Terrible behaviour. Sounds very parochial and against the Equality Act 2010. Protected characteristics by law and they should be disciplined.

We do have choices not to get upset about opinions which people express which we don't accept are true.

Yes of course it would be appropriate to have a quiet word, (preferably by the person who is actually upset and not by the people who are upset on behalf of others which is what is happening so often these days) but not to report them to HR which was suggested in this thread, and I think has now been done.