Looks like Russia is going to get Donbas after all, which was Putin's ultimate goal

[Fibrich]

AIBU to think that it's blatant now that poor old Ukraine was just a pawn in the NATO vs Russia Supermatch and its people got dragged in due to having a corrupt President who had his head turned by the West?

Russia has controlled Donbas since 2014 anyway through pro Russian and puppet governments. You're right in that Ukraine is a 'pawn'. And it was a pawn between the Soviets and the West too. Until Ukraine joins NATO, unfortunately, I don't think Donbas will be Ukrainian controlled soon. Not good for Ukraine's economy though.

Ukraine's people, last time I spoke to any (which was this afternoon over our garden fence), want Putin and Russian forces to fuck off out of their country.

They got "dragged in" to defending their country due to Russia invading it.

PS You got your Kyvian Rus' culture from them. They don't really rate you.

"head turned by the West?" 🙄

I don't think NATO had any intention of letting Ukraine into NATO. But they couldn't say "it's because you're too corrupt and you have neonazis on your payroll which we can't approve of even though actually anyone who fights Russia is good news for us". Instead they encouraged Ukraine to look NATO leaning enough that Russia would act to decimate Ukraine so now NATO can say "well sorry, we would have let you join us but actually now your infrastructure is fucked and you're broke, maybe give it another twenty years ".

They said the same thing about Croatia, Slovenia , Lithuania joining NATO 20 years ago. I don't believe NATO didn't want Ukraine to join per se, but rather more likely was just the problems with territorial disputes, 'corruption', separatist groups and economic conditions.

At the point where US/NATO decided it was an invasion (before the massive incursions, but years after the conflict started) he was on telly demanding a no-fly zone. Obviously that was never going to happen, so why did he think it would? Why did he think the US/NATO were his friends? What expectations was he acting under?

Look at that meeting he had with trump where he got chucked out of the White House. He was like Joe Pesci in Goodfellas, suddenly realising he was never going to get made.

It was in NATO's interest to build up a pseudo alliance with a former Soviet state on Russia's border but it was not and never has been in NATO's interest to follow through with it. Now they don't have to, the question won't come up, not in the lifetime of any current politician. Ukraine is going to be reliant on aid and parachuted political actors for a long time now. They won't be up for membership of anything any time soon.

None of them actually border Russia though, barring the short Lithuania/Kaliningrad one .

NATO has increased far beyond the original limits as set during the post Soviet breakup when it promised Russia it would not move eastward, not by "one inch", but Ukraine would have been a step too far - not just a neighbour of Russia but previously part of the USSR.

They draw the line with former Soviet states? Estonia? Latvia? Lithuania? I'm aware, Croatia and Slovenia don't border Russia, but Serbia was seen in a similar light then as Russia is now, albeit on a lesser scale. Both countries were/are at war, both countries with territorial disputes, economic problems, etc

Its a war. One side wins, one side loses. Who cares.

Frankly you sound like a Russian troll.

If you think that Ukraine had its 'head turned by the west' you either haven't been paying attention since 2014 or you are deliberately trying to be provocative by posting misinformation.

Yes, they seem to have done, and Russia wasn't too arsed about them. Ukraine though is mineral rich and had scientific expertise put in place previously by the USSR, like it or not. Plus ofc lots of ethnic Russians.

Serbia, they had to get on board and pull them in, there had previously been genocide going on and US brokered the peace; the territory is only as it is in the first place because it got settled (after civil war) just a few years into post Soviet collapse when everyone was pretending to be Russia's friend, hence leeway.

Yeah, you're right. Ukraine is indeed extremely mineral rich. Minerals that the West wants. Minerals that the UK is quite desperate for. As much as the west, US and NATO want to pretend Ukraine does nothing for them: quite a lot of oil, gas, even sunflowers and rapeseed oils come from Ukraine. The economic impacts on further Russian annexation and invasion would really hurt the West. NATO should be pushing to Ukraine really. They probably stilll have to err on the side of caution, due to the risk of a larger war with Russia.

Nobody wants a war with Russia, surely. It's in no one's interests. They've shown repeatedly that they will throw traumatised young men to get mown down on the front line in gargantuan numbers plus they are a nuclear superpower. So NATO would never get fully behind Ukraine and frankly neither you nor I (assuming you are also in the UK) would want them to, because that would mean war with Russia, and everyone dies, so that's not going to happen.

But. Get a bit behind them, so they feel that they can cock a snook at Russia, provoke the bear just enough that he expends time, money and resources on fighting and loses a bunch more of young men (Russia's productivity has never quite recovered from the demographic shock of losing so many in WWII) and therefore weaken this enemy of the West, plus have a long term feasible potential for political meddling in Ukraine internal politics for years to come which again will divert Russian resources? Yes, that's absolutely something the brave boys in NATO can be on board with.

I would like NATO to fully support Ukraine. There won't be a larger war if NATO plays its cards right. As you mention, Russia's productivity hasn't improved as much since 1945 as Western nations. There are many advancements - technological or otherwise that NATO dominates over Russia.

NATO has condemned Russia’s “brutal and unprovoked war of aggression” and coordinated extensive military, financial, and humanitarian aid. This shows that NATO does at least show superficial support. Clearly not enough.

NATO already trains Ukraine troops, has since Euromaiden at least, also gives Ukraine weapons, clapped out and tax deductible, but weapons nonetheless, monitors borders, almost certainly engages in espionage. Not sure what else you'd have them (us) do. Ukraine is not going to "win" the war regardless, not without making NATO an actual combatant against Russia which I hope you recognise would be absolutely catastrophic for everyone, you, me, Putin and Zelensky included. I also hope you don't think that NATO is doing this because Ukraine is the good guy and Russia is the bad guy. NATO is doing this because it's in NATO's interest to provide sop to Ukraine.

What’s it like in Vladivostok this time of year, OP?

So Putin is just a puppet of the West? Is that what you're saying? That he invaded Ukraine, and continues to invade Ukraine, because the West pulled his strings?

Or are you saying that Putin does have agency but is just stupid? Invaded Ukraine because he's too dim not to rise to the bait?

I think you'll do badly if you bet on Putin being stupid, OP.

Reached the megalomaniac stage of being a dictator, yes, which clouds his judgement and restricts the information his underlings dare pass on to him. But otherwise not stupid.

Ukraine will never join NATO. Or the EU for that matter.